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Kore discontinuation

Discussion in 'KORE' started by Thomas @ NI, Jun 7, 2011.

  1. schrage musik

    schrage musik NI Product Owner

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    :D :D :D
     
  2. TabSel

    TabSel NI Product Owner

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    @ Keir: crossgrade offer timeline

    I currently only know of

    1) a revision of the crossgrade price to Maschine
    2) the Kore Sound Packs made available to current Kore owners

    I'd like to again focus on another thing:

    [QUOTE="Keir @ NI]...
    We felt that giving people till the end of the year is a reasonable and sufficient amount of time to allow Kore users the chance to look into Maschine (including the 1.7 update) and see if they're interested...[/QUOTE]

    A) It seems to be obvious, that 1.7. doesn't bring any "Sound Matrix" features, or at least enhanced audio/midi routing possibilities. It would have been announced? Sure, nobody knows, but I want to know, and you could ask, as you've got contact to the developers? PLEASE!

    B) When I crossgrade @ 12/31/2011 and there will be further upgrade costs soon after, with Maschine 2.0 (or even an enhanced Maschine hardware controller) I'd be very very pissed (AGAIN). PLEASE NOT!

    C) So may I kindly ask you to forward these things, especially our claim to make the crossgrade offer for Kore owners available for much much longer, and provide some feedback on official thoughts about this? PLEASE!
     
  3. Klutch

    Klutch Forum Member

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    sorry i misunderstood the sarcasm in your post KimberlyHilton. I just look at this forum real quick and havent been around long enough to know everyone.

    that aside i still want to rant.

    I still think NI screwed us. They knew what they were advertising kore as and trust me no company just wakes up one morning and says well lets just discontinue one of our main components. Nope they knew they were going to discontinue it and then still sold it to us. That is just bad business in my opinion.

    Mashine users beware of komplete 8 saying Mashine ready! If you see that then just go ahead and sell it while it still hold a little value.

    Thats the other thing that bugs me. If they give us a crossgrade deal then you can believe that it will have a time limit to be used and that time limit will probably end right before the release of the new Mashine, then we will be stuck with another out dated piece of equipment. My guess is that Mashine 2 will be out at the begining of next year since they originally said the crossgrade would only be good till the end of the year.
     
  4. schrage musik

    schrage musik NI Product Owner

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    @Klutch: I get your points entirely but I've been thinking about this in far more cool manner for the last few days. When it comes right down to it, NI can do what they like. They don't HAVE to offer ANY crossgrade. If they just gave us a businesslike version of 'sod off', they'd be within their rights. OK, they'd lose some business but I wonder how much? I really don't know how many of us Kore Konspirators there actually are?

    My thoughts at the moment are that NI have done what they have done for sound business reasons and NOT just to piss us off (though the latter effect has been very pronounced). I wonder if spending on Kore could have dragged the company to its knees? I genuinely don't know. The world is currently rather full of 'gone out of business' signs and everyone of those signs signifies a whole bunch of heartache for a number of people. Had NI gone on with Kore, might we, a few years down the line, be complaining that there are now no updates to anything because NI went bust? Again, I don't know.

    I would guess that there are few people more upset about the 'loss' of Kore than me but I really do believe that NI are trying to address our grievances - both real and imagined (and we have to accept that some of them ARE imagined). I'm surprised that Keir and Thomas haven't been completely frightened away by some of the bile and invective here.

    I have worked out how Kore will serve my needs for many years to come. I hope others can begin to do the same (and I mean that for THEIR sakes).
     
  5. kb123

    kb123 NI Product Owner

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    1,255
    Couldn't agree more. NI don't have to offer 64 bit support and they are too. Its now up to the Kore user community to keep Kore being useful. Kore is only dead if users allow it to become dead.
     
  6. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

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    6,268
    That's been my main response to this:

    http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142065

    to keep showing how it can be useful. I'm sure NI understands that the whole Kore community would see this as a major loss and as with any loss you go through stages - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I think it's perfectly understandable that there was some anger, and right that there was some bargaining - that is still going on and I think it led to NI realising they needed to make some adjustments to how they handled things like the soundpacks and maybe the Maschine crossgrade too. Personally I never got particularly angry - I always tend to think from all POV at once and try to respond to any crisis constructively, but I do feel very sad at the loss of such a great tool and although it is not dead by any means we all hoped it would continue into a third version at some point and particularly that its limitations and bugs would be addressed and that is (bar a couple of things such as 64bit) not going to happen. It doesn't stop us using it but it does start to constrain how we use it - particularly if we use it for sound design as the market for that will shrink rapidly.
     
  7. meeks

    meeks NI Product Owner

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    "NI sound business descision " = gun aimed at foot

    Let them state why they did it after a reaquistion of major stock at the begining of the month and profits above 50% for the last two years.

    True, they don't have to...but I don't need to buy BP Oil do I.

    Let's hear the reasoning, enlighten us how the future will be!
    Has NI just turned into nothing more than a "hip hop cash cow"?
     
  8. TabSel

    TabSel NI Product Owner

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    profits above 50% => lots'a cash => reaquisition of major stock = low on cash

    if they HAD cash, they might easily ease upset customers. It's a tough time for NI currently => restructuring, refocusing, hyping the cash train, getting rid of costly areas, like Kore2. Sound Packs are 3rd party efforts, only distributed by NI, their own synth are "fully developed". The biggest projects were Kore2 (due to its engine maintenance and it's .KSD-control-mapping for each and every Komplete preset) and Maschine.
     
  9. KyleT

    KyleT Forum Member

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    @ schrage musik:
    What should be of concern to NI is all the bad publicity this move generates. It may very well be so that losing the Kore user base won't have that damaging effects in itself, but overall their reputation is in jeopardy.

    At this point I'm personally depending on NI to come up with a nice deal on the soundpacks, so my unit won't be totally redundant - I don't have any soundpacks, and they were the primary reason I bought Kore to begin with.

    As regards to Maschine, it is totally uninteresting for me.
     
  10. schrage musik

    schrage musik NI Product Owner

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    Are you sure you understand the term "cash cow"? A cash cow is something that is guaranteed to be able to be milked for money. so you might opine that Maschine is NI's current 'cash cow'. Your statement puts forward the theory that NI is giving lots of money to the hip hop community. Which I don't think is quite the case. If I'm mistaken here, I'll quickly learn to count to four while raising my right arm and pointing meaningfully at the ceiling.
    ---
    Point 1: Yes. All of this could jeopardise NI's reputation. In fact, to a degree, it probably has. I wonder if NI were quite aware how passionately some of us feel about Kore? But it's now a moot point. Further damage caused will benefit no-one and could lead to great loss for all.

    Point 2: I think they're genuinely trying to come up with something for us - though the point remains, they don't have to.

    Point 3: My feelings towards Maschine change almost by the hour :)
     
  11. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

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    1,109
    Hi folks, been busy. My Trillian should arrive today, yay! Omnisphere and Stylus RMX should arrive by thursday or friday at the latest. Time to make some space for the libraries. After that I'll be a bit busy and will have even less time for fretting and posting here or waiting for some small scrap of info from Native Instruments. It just doesn't become me.

    I'll come by from time to time but for the most part, it's time I move on.

    BTW, am I the only one who thinks "mothergarage" = "noiserot"?
    New member + ignores important facts
    Just noticed the similarity...
     
  12. blackrg

    blackrg NI Product Owner

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    my 2#

    Like many folks here Ive been reading the threads and thinking about this.

    I have realized that since computer musicians left synthesizers and drum machines for the virtual world, gone are the days when your synth just sat in the corner and continued to function as a DX7 or whatever until it turned to dust.

    There are upsides to this

    We get cool stuff that is upgraded and changed much faster than before.

    We get cool stuff that does a lot more, much cheaper than before - my band bought a used AKAI S900 back in 1990 for an obscene amount (about £800)

    Compared to those days Komplete 7 is an absolutely awesome bargain.

    There are downsides too

    Software needs to be profitable, supportable and upgradeable in future for the company that makes it.

    Bad design decisions early on in a software project can make the product difficult to enhance later on and result in the unsupportability of the system eating the profits.

    So we get new versions that break compatibility with old versions in order to add new features.

    Or we get the product killed, like Kore.

    Then there is the threat that someone else - the operating system maker - will break the product.

    Every piece of music software - hosts, plugins, instruments, is now subject to these threats.

    Music software companies are normally small outfits so their design decisions and the changes in the OS platform can have a major impact on their livelihoods.

    So I understand the reasons NI gives for its decisions.

    I'm still gutted that Kore has no future though, because it solves a major issue that e-musicians have. Last year I bought Kore 2 and upgraded from Reaktor to Komplete. That is my entire budget on synths spent for the next couple of years. I don't have major money to spend. I can't leap into Spectrasonics or Vienna or whatever.

    What am i gonna do?
    1. Get some real use out of my investment in NI products

    2. Render every track I think I might need later on, and don't expect to rely on any plugin or host to be around later.

    3. Render demo tracks so at least I'll have a copy of the tune.

    4. Think about keeping my old pc when I upgrade to a new one, and running the NI plugins over Reamote/Rewire or whatever

    5. Think about whether I really do need that shiny new technology upgrade, maybe I should learn to use what I have.

    6. Buy some old synthesizers?

    ~brg
     
  13. meeks

    meeks NI Product Owner

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    You'll notice that was in quotations marks...that's a sign that means I'm referencing something some one has said, such as the article I posted just a page or two back that you should really read (along with the post that, well, was mostly aimed at you). I'm sure that deep down inside you still understood what the context was, everyone else did.

    But thank you again for such enlightening posts, the people here, I'm sure, are always glad to hear you're witty responses to each and every attention grabbing little thing you can comment on. I for one find it just plainly beneficial to the overall conversation, so thanks and keep up the good work! Come to think of it, I don't know how to get through life without you :(. I think it might be a good time that you leave your parents house and come and shack up with me (dirty boy) ;)
     
  14. schrage musik

    schrage musik NI Product Owner

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    1,258
    @meeks (or should I refer to you as 'class president')?

    Altering or defacing a supposed quote from another user is, at best, bad manners. At worst it may be regarded as fraud. I would guess that other forum members would take a dim view of this.

    In a similar respect, putting quote marks around an inappropriate statement does not negate your responsibility for the erroneous usage.

    Thanks for the offer of shacking up. I think I'll pass.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  15. KimberlyHilton

    KimberlyHilton Forum Member

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    Unless I see the actual financials, I'm not going to assume that Kore was not profitable. It takes a leap of faith to trust NI on this issue, and the trust factor has been broken with many of their actions.

    I'm not sure why all the excitement and thankfullness about what they offered thus far. A Maschine crossgrade benefits THEM. Selling soundpacks benefits THEM. Some may assume that they had planned to move the soundpacks to Maschine all along.

    I'm not a programmer, so why should I believe, or how do I know for sure, that it takes a massive amount of resources to maintain/update Kore as it is? ..and that those resources are not adequately compensated. How would I know for sure that Kore isn't profitable after: sales of it's system/software, sales of corresponding soundpacks, and other NI product sales (including Maschine) that stem from having Kore in their lineup.

    BTW, how do I know for sure that another version of Kore, possibly stripped down a bit, couldn't be more easily maintained and continue on with future products/updates/bundles/etc..

    There is also an assumption by some that Kore didn't sell well, and the Kore community is tiny, almost non-existent, or is just composed of a few elite and brilliant sound designers (I know I'm not one of them). Does anyone have any solid numbers on this? I don't get the feeling that the community is small, but maybe I'm wrong.

    Kore could be making a profit, or it could be just breaking even, or it could be losing money. Unless someone produces some financials, or knows something that the general public doesn't know, then we are just assuming based on what we're told.

    Bottom line is that NI simply could have decided to move into a new market/product, regardless of how Kore was doing, and decided to put every resource they had into it. It could be just as simple as that. Not only that, but decided this long ago, hence the lack of trust and anger.

    From what I have heard, Ableton has the resources to take Maschine head on if they wanted to, and can easily do it without disbanding their core system (as NI did). If this is the case, and it actually happens, NI's decision to go "all in" on Maschine (while terminating Kore and it's community) may not have been the best one.
     
  16. chrys

    chrys NI Product Owner

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    265
    It will be dead unless they open up the KSD specs. If users can generate their own soundpacks for Kore use, and if third parties could still sell their own Kore soundpacks outside of NI, that would give it a lot of life... I doubt that third parties will offer soundpacks on this but I have a feeling users would, as Kymeia has already done...

    Their brand is taking a serious hit with this. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know how business works. The more the word spreads, the more their reputation will suffer because of how they chose to handle the situation. Online blogs, etc have started giving more coverage to the issue, including futuresounds, etc... Not to mention Kimberly's BBB link with at least 19 complaints against the company...

    The Facebook group has over 100 users now. I have a feeling that many people out there STILL don't know that it's been discontinued but we'll see. The community is definitely larger than just a "few" vocal voices on the NI forums and NI will certainly feel the hit in their wallet...
     
  17. Andrew Koenig

    Andrew Koenig NI Product Owner

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    It's hard for me to see how these two statements can both be true at once.

    The Native Instruments forum has nearly 5,000 active members. If only 100 of them are willing to register their opposition on Facebook (not to mention the more than 200,000 inactive members), then maybe Native Instruments is right in believing that most of their customers simply don't care very much.
     
  18. chrys

    chrys NI Product Owner

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    Many people do not have access to Facebook or have accounts. I've gotten numerous private messages about that on here. It's just a small slice because there is not another centralized location where they can all gather, other than these forums...

    Being an "active member" on this forum is a bit misleading. The way vBulletin calculates active members, it includes users who have not even verified or activated their accounts yet... In other words, there are way less than 5,000 active users on the site.

    https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php/216162-Active-Members-count

    "Can I get a developer or some more people to confirm members who don't even activate their accounts/verify their emails are being included in this 'Active Member' count?"

    "Yes."

    The real number of active users is closer to 1000. Most active all time was 1,455 and current active hovering just over 800. So there is roughly 10% of active users in the Facebook group... and clearly more than 10% that are not happy with NI handling of this since not everyone can join Facebook (or wants to)...

    10% can certainly spread the word about the brand enough to affect a much larger percentage. All it really takes is one objective review of their handling of customers to turn off a lot of potential future consumers...
     
  19. KimberlyHilton

    KimberlyHilton Forum Member

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    99
    Your correlations were very convenient in your analysis'.

    If you look at the activity/views on the Kore board and the Maschine board, they are very similar. Maschine only has 120 active users on their forum as we speak, so we are not talking about massive forum activiy in general.

    Most customers vote with their wallet, and a very small percentage spends time on forums, and very few take the time to join opposition sites. I'm surprised there are a hundred on that particular Facebook group, (that's actually pretty good) and my conclusion would be the opposite of yours. But yes, most owners will vote with their wallet and their future non-referrals to NI. They will not buy another NI product and never post any of their views about it.

    Keep in mind that most Kore owners, including the ones that are currently still buying it, don't have a clue as to what is going on. Current owners still haven't received a notice, have they? I could be wrong on this. In any case, we haven't even begun to see the backlash peak on this issue.

    But even using your own logic, 48,000 views, just in this thread, in 2 weeks is pretty intense. And it is not even near peaking, due to the lag of uninformed.
     
  20. sowhoso

    sowhoso NI Product Owner

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    ok, no problem at all

    i'm cool with that decision