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Linear arrangement option

Discussion in 'Feature Request Archive' started by machineboy, Jul 2, 2014.

  1. machineboy

    machineboy NI Product Owner

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    I'm new to maschine but having used all kind of recording options from tape to DAWs via hexadecimal music editors, I think that maschine has some workflow issues to work out.

    It excels at strict groove-based loop production, but once you want longer segments that overlap and flow over and into each other, things start to get hairy, quickly. The organic feel of music making is where maschine falls short.

    I really want a scene-free, linear arrangement option. To be able to put any pattern anywhere and have track-based automation would really open up the musical possibilities. Right now, for my kind of music, it feels very limiting and I constantly have to work around the limitations. When you're in a creative mindframe it's not fun constantly duplicating patterns, lenghtening them to fit other parts without sounding repetitive and fitting them into scenes. Too many patterns, too many scenes, too much work!

    I know running it in a DAW could mitigate some of these problems, but I really want Maschine to evolve into a more feature-filled music creation tool, loosening up the strict pattern-scenes workflow.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  2. cdash7

    cdash7 New Member

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    I completely agree. . . Maschine would MURDER with a Scene/pattern mode AND a scene free linear arrangement option for tracks and automation.
     
  3. Mystic38

    Mystic38 NI Product Owner

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    This is quite possibly the 100th thread with the same topic..............
     
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  4. machineboy

    machineboy NI Product Owner

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    Well, at least there are a hundred people wanting this feature then :)
     
  5. JokeY1993

    JokeY1993 NI Product Owner

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    There are probably a million and half wanting those features ;)
     
  6. shaunbless@yahoo.com

    shaunbless@yahoo.com NI Product Owner

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    I want it also
     
  7. brownegg

    brownegg New Member

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    Yes. Bumping this because as I get more comfortable and familiar with Maschine (basically going from beginner to intermediate user), the arranging model is *very* in the way. I think Scenes could be gotten rid of altogether, but making them optional is at least correct in a user-facing sense (it may create a giant hackfest under the hood).

    Another way to solve the problem is to allow for multiple Patterns per Group in a scene. This is my preference, as it preserves everything about the current model--it just makes it possible to use a single Scene to hold all of your patterns, making things essentially "Sceneless".

    I think this would cover all bases. Current happy users would need to make no changes. People like me who want to use Scenes (as they were intended, even!) could create them in arbitrary ways. And purists could create everything within a single Scene.

    This should be near or at the top of the development queue. Maschine sounds great, comes with killer raw materials, feels good to work with... it's a seriously nice product, and fit for "real" music making. But this single issue can make people not take Maschine seriously as a standalone product (at best) or anything more than a "groovebox" (at worst).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Freccero

    Freccero New Member

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    Yea that's definitely Maschine's biggest flaw IMO, especially when doing something as simple as having a sample (like a riser) go from one scene to the next - it's so difficult, and even with Oneshot mode on you can't really see the timing of everything
     
  9. AllDAWsNeedtoSync!

    AllDAWsNeedtoSync! New Member

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    YES! Free pattern arrangement would make Machine worth so much more to me!
     
  10. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    How would you operate this from the controller?
     
  11. AllDAWsNeedtoSync!

    AllDAWsNeedtoSync! New Member

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    I don't know, Mr36, but I sure hope NI can figure it out. Perhaps Ableton has some sort of patent that is getting in the way.
     
  12. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    A patent for linear arranging? And Ableton has it? So almost all other DAW developers have been paying royalties to Ableton for the past 15 years? Or maybe they only acquired this patent just before Maschine was released... And before Ableton had it, Pro Tools had the patent. Or Akai even! :p

    But seriously... I'm all for pattern and "song" sequencing improvements and even new features, but they have to be usable from the controller (and all controllers too). Many of the improvements asked for could work as extensions to how Maschine currently works, but a feature that allows Patterns to be anywhere and overlapping Scene boundaries seems like it would be "software-only" and that goes against what Maschine is.

    I just think it's important for people requesting features to consider how they might be implemented with the controllers in mind. Y'know, it might just persuade NI that little bit more. ;)
     
  13. AllDAWsNeedtoSync!

    AllDAWsNeedtoSync! New Member

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    I referenced Ableton because they have the only other DAW with a specific controller and from what little I know about Live it seems that you can freely arrange it's loops in a linear fashion much like I would like Maschine to be able to. So maybe they have a pattent on whatever method they employ to acheive this from their controller and that might explain why NI can't make it happen with Maschine. But I was also half kidding as I don't really think there is a patent and so I don't understand why Maschine can't do it when Live can. And as far as thinking about how the free arrangement of patterns would be achieved from the Machine controller that's NI's job, not mine. But here's an idea anyway: Currently one can use the Machine controller to select a scene and then subsequently select a pattern to play in that scene. Well perhaps there could be a linear arrangement mode switch that you could select from the controller and in this new mode there would be no scenes, but you would still use the pattern button to select which patter you want to work with at any point. Then perhaps you could have the jog wheel scrub the cursor to any point in the linear arrange view and when the pattern button is pressed there could be a menu option to apply the pattern to the cursor point. Then there could even be options to truncate or loop the pattern to whatever length desired or even tell the pattern to start at a different point than it's original. So in the original arangement mode you create your patterns and in the new operating mode those created patters are used as a source for painting, slicing and re-arranging. This is basically what Live does. You create your loops or clips in one view and then in your arrangement view those source clips can be painted and cut up and moved anwhere in the timeline of the song. To take this idea further you could also allow individual midi notes to be written in the linear view independent of the patterns so you can add one-shots where you want without having to create a pattern for it. I think Maschine studio would be better suited for all of this considering it's fantastic built-in screens, but old-school samplers made you read numbers to understand where your sample started and ended so I don't think Maschine should have a problem with this.
     
  14. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    7,810
    Could be wrong, as I haven't used Push much, but I think arrangement view control is very limited (almost non-existent) with it, so Ableton don't have a particularly good way of doing this from their controller.

    This kind of "scrub & place" idea is certainly one way of doing it, but have you actually imagined doing that? Sounds like an absolute pain in the arse to me. Not to mention being tethered once again to the computer screen (even the Studio's screens would be limited for this, I feel), where using a mouse to do this would make more sense anyway.

    One other popular suggestion is to have the Live feature of recording a "performance" of a song as MIDI/Patterns to such a linear arrangement view. This could work perhaps, though Pattern changes during the performance would likely have to be quantized and new Scenes could be created to accommodate them.

    Essentially, though, one thing that some users seem to miss (or misunderstand) is that Maschine already has a "linear" arranger. It's that thing at the top of the window. It's just a lot more constrained than other "song" sequencers.

    Anyway, my only real point is that it's critical for whatever improvements NI make to this or anything else to be controllable from the hardware. I still think just improvements and extensions to the current method will do the job for most users without going the "linear DAW" way. But that's just my opinion.
     
  15. AllDAWsNeedtoSync!

    AllDAWsNeedtoSync! New Member

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    I totally get the hardware controllable ethos, but what's the point of even having the software part if it is limited by the hardware? Why not just make it a standalone and leave it at that? The main benefit of having a software component is that the software allows (or should allow) the user to dive deeper into more functions and visualization than the hardware allows. So of course they should try to make any changes and improvements as accessible from the hardware controller as possible, but I don't think they should shut down great ideas just because they can't fully implement them with the hardware. That being said I would be very dissapointed if they couldn't figure out how to bring this idea to fruition with the controller. I think it's very feasible and the more people ask for this feature the more they may pay attention and make an effort to figure out how to give us this function. I will gladly pay for an upgrade that includes this idea and I hope they are reading!
     
  16. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    And I think that's the key point where we differ in our view and desires of Maschine.
     
  17. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

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    I agree it needs to be a hardware feature. Maschine would not be what it is without this design philosophy and I hope they don't abandon it. However, I have found a couple of different ways to implement a parallel linear arrangement right from the controller without much paging etc. Also the multiple patterns per scene could work too. The controller is not an issue here. NI just have not done it yet. I like and prefer arranging with patterns but I also like using linear tracks along with my pattern tracks so the feature is needed even though it is a "pattern based sequencer".
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. AntonA1

    AntonA1 NI Product Owner

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    1,710
    I see two main possibilities here:

    1. the ability to assign a group (via it's sound slot) as 'free' so that it disregards any time line or pattern or scene info and you can input audio that's as long as you like -and you choose whether it loops or is 'one shot'; great for adding on live stuff, or creating randomness. Once it's recorded, it's one long free pattern and you can drag it wherever you want along the time line (using the grid as per usual) to determine where it starts from. If your timing isn't perfect, too bad, it will loop on itself imperfectly at the end (ok for drone elements to create randomness) or you can trim the end like you would in any normal audio application or with a sample end point, or just use it one shot; excellent from adding an element that can move across multiple scenes. If you want to cut it up later, you just drag it to a regular sound slot and do your thing in the sampler.

    2. same as above but with an elastic grid, so markers are placed on the transients and there's a time line, and Maschine can then align each part of the performance with the regular scenes that are running in parallel and the master clock/time line, above and/or below it in the arrange window, quantizing to the grid specification of your choice.

    ...all of the above is just a complicated way of saying: give us a free audio track that plays on top of the groups and scenes, and if you can throw in an elastic grid, so much the better.