(MAC) Power problem: 2x Kontrol X1 + NI Audio 8

Received my two Kontrol X1 units today, they're going to replace my two A&H 1D units eventually.

But after connecting both units I'm confronted with a familiar problem (had this before with my 1D's): a power problem.

To make it clear I'll start with a list of my setup:

- Apple Macbook Pro (15" Unibody) 2,8ghz (Has 2 USB ports)
- Native Instruments Audio 8
- Native Instruments Kontrol X1
- Native Instruments Kontrol X1
- Logitech self powered USB hub.

I use the self powered USB hub because the macbook only has 2 USB port, and I need at least 3.
When I connect X1 unit A to the USB hub it lits up, but when I connect X1 unit B to the USB hub it lits up for a really short time (not all the LEDS switch on) and unit A lits up also up again for just a short while.
If I start Traktor Pro it will only recognise 1 X1 unit.
So I'm not able to use the second one.

I have found a workaround:
connect X1 unit A to the USB hub, connect X1 unit B to the free port in the Macbook and connect the NI Audio 8 to the USB hub,
It seems to work, but I haven't had the time to check if it works everytime and more important: If it's reliable/stable.

I really doubt if this is reliable/stable because there seems to be just enough power to power all the 3 devices up.
I know this is not really a Kontrol X1 issue but a Macbook problem (the 17" and older models don't seem to have this problem, there are some postings on Mac forums discussing this issue)

So I'm really curious if there are more users with two X1 units and an Audio 8 in combination with the 15" Macbook Pro and I would love to read their experiences / tips!

(As said before, I had the same problems with two 1D's and the NI Audio 8, but I was able to connect one of them with a MIDI cable and power that one up with an USB adapter that goes directly into the 240v outlet)

 

If you are going to use a USB Hub get a powered USB and get one with a power brick that is rated to at least 1800Ma for 4 ports. McBooks do not meet spec with regard to USB power delivery. I have seen their ports limit at 320ma, nowhere near the 500ma that is noted in the spec.

 

You've got an example of a Hub to meets the requirements?
The problem is that most shops don't mention the mA/A in the specifications.

I use a Logitech USB premium hub:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/notebook_products/usb_hubs/devices/3048&cl=au,en
I don't have it here right now, but I really thought it said 2.5A at the back.

 

Defo need a powered usb hub, ive got the same setup as you.

Im running a Belkin Hub:

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=357387

Got it for £20 off Amazon about 6 months ago, not sure on specs but it works fine, with 2 X1's, an Akai MPD24 & Novation Launchpad.. The Audio 8 uses the other USB port.

 

That 2.5amp is what it might be capable of, but unless you have a power brick to plug into it you are entirely limited to the incoming ports available power. That single port is limited to 500 ma Max so if your plug in 4 devices to your hub and have no other power delivered to the hub then you are limited to a peak of 500ma for ALL ports in the hub. Now if you have a laptop USB port that does not deliver 500 ma per laptop port and delivers 320ma peak instead you are totally screwed. Thats not even enough to take care of the in-rush current when you first plugin your A8.

Like VYZR I use a Belkin hub, its an older model but the power brick is 5v 2200ma.


Phil

 

i don't know why mac has so stupid politcs about USB... (i'm a macbook pro user)..and i don't REALLY know why NI didn't create a kontrol x1 with a simply piece of hardware to connect 2 kontrol x1 with only 1usb port

really annoying

i hate hub usb, because sometimes they makes instability on the system...i prefer don't user them, during a gig...but if you wish 2 kontrol x1....is the ONLY choice

 

The very reason I went with the 17" Macbook Pro. Has 3 USB ports. I wish it had the SD card reader though... The Express 34 is pretty much useless. Even if you find a card for it, different pluggins are way too expensive.

- Pixel -

 

a MacBook pro 17 is simply crazy (IMHO)....a price totally out of head....

best overpriced product ever

 

Then slap in 8GB of DDR3, and a Samsung 256GB SSD, and yea! (extra 1500 bucks) But god the thing is fast. Read / Write times in mbps - 120 / 205. Average laptop is 35 / 50.

- Pixel -

 

Just a quick update, I've used my configuration a few times now, for about 3 hours continually:

1 x MacBook Pro 15" 2,8
Kontrol X1 A connected to usb in Macbook
Logitech powered USB hub connected to usb in Macbook
Kontrol X1 B connected to Logitech powered USB hub
NI Audio 8 connected to Logitech powered USB hub

and it seems to work without any errors / power issues.
But I have to connected as described above otherwise it will not work.

Is it possible that connecting the Audio 8 to the USB hub and not directly to the Macbook causes any problems, for example: Quality problems and/or latency in/de-crease?
I don't use timecode vinyl/CD, does the latency even bother?

 

Never ever connect your audio 8 to a Hub mate.
Not a good idea at all. It will cause latency maybe even drop outs .
The Audio 8 should always be connected to the Mac.
Just connect the X1s to the Hub. If its powered they should be fine.

Karlos

 

I'm far from an Apple biggot, in fact I run Windows for everything but as an Electrical Engineer geek type I just wanted to set this thread straight for clarity and future views. The recommendations for a powered USB hub are appropriate, and this is NOT just a *workaround* for your Macbook.

The official spec for USB is that any host (your computer) will provide 500mAh of power to each USB port. That doesn't matter if it's apple, dell, or some crappy $150 netbook. Every designer of USB hardware knows this, and they ensure that they engineer their USB device to use less than that 500mAh if they want to avoid requiring an external power adapter. The APC40 Ableton controller is a great example where they just couldn't come in under that limit and had to require external power.

Some small devices such as a USB thumb drive may only require 100mAh. Things like audio interfaces, devices with lots of LEDs, etc may struggle and barely stay below that magical 500mAh limit. The more complex the device, the more power it requires. It's often a design decision on a device to limit the knobs, buttons, LEDs, etc to get just below that magic number so that a device doesn't require an external power supply.

Audio interfaces in general are very power hungry. You're pretty much guaranteed that the interface itself needs 500mAh of power no matter who made it (M-Audio, NI, MOTU, etc). Because of the complexity of the X1 compared to something like a thumb drive it's also going to require (in my estimates) around 200-250mAh of power.

When you plug in a "self-powered" USB hub, it's not "self-powered" at all. It's merely like a Y-adapter that effectly splits the 500mAh between any devices connected to it. If it's a 5-port hub, the total sum of the power requirements for all devices connected to it absolutely has to be < 500mAh. In fact, the hub itself draws a small amount of current so it leaves something like 480mAh available for devices.

When you plug in the Audio8, your power being supplied by the Macbook on that single port (split with the unpowered hub) is now consumed. Any additional devices plugged into that hub will rob power providing insufficient current to drive the devices causing one or more of them to malfunction, not power on at all, etc.

What you've discovered is that by pluggin the Audio8 alone into a single USB port, it is supplied by the appropriate amount of current by itself. Plugging the 2 X1s through the hub on the other port seems to work as the total sum of the hub and both X1s is < 500mAh supplied by *that* port.

That said, an externally powered USB hub ensures that *each* of its ports receives their own 500mAh of current by drawing power directly from the power adapter instead of your Macbook. This is definitely a recommended configuration for any DJ that requires stability as you don't have to worry about minor power fluctuations putting you just over the magic limit on any device or sum of devices.

Now, I could go on about the Macbook's history of not actually consistently supplying the 500mAh to both of its ports. Certain revisions are known to have this problem where one port supplies more power than the other. Without writing a whole book here, do yourself a favor and get a high quality externally powered USB hub for all of your DJ needs. ...Or, to put in a small plug for Dell, my D630 supplies 500mAh for all 4 USB ports

- Midknight

PS - I really wish some manufacturer of USB hardware for DJs would publish this somewhere. It's such a common question and while most of us know how to get around it, I think few understand why. Feel free to sticky this if it keeps coming up.

 

CraigKC thank you for your reply, It's much more clear now.
But there's still something I quite don't understand.

The Logitech USB hub I use has it's own powerbrick (I think I've used the term 'self powered hub' incorrect, what I mean is that the hub has a power source for itself) , so the configuration as you describe should work:

But it's not, plugging the Audio 8 into 1 USB port on the MAC: works fine,
plugging one X1 into the MAC: fine, but I need two (and I have only two ports) so let's continue:
Plug in the USB hub into the MAC (with it's own powerbrick, connected to 230v), connect one X1 into the hub: works fine (lights go on)
BUT, when I plugin the second: It doesn't work, lights go on for a very short time but directly switch off. Resulting in only one working X1 and the working Audio 8

If I switch the Audio 8 and one X1 it DOES work, so now this is the situation:
One X1 directly connected to the MAC, the USB hub (with it's own power) directly connected to the MAC, one X1 connected to the hub and the Audio 8 connected to the hub.
It works but according to several postings it's not the most ideal situation because it should be better if the Audio 8 was connected directly to the MAC

 

I'm considering an USB Express card.

Is a good option too?

I found it easier to transport and without power adapter.

Anyone using? Can you recomend any?

Thanks!

 

D-Link DUB-H7 7-Port USB 2.0 Hub Good HUB with 500mAh (power) per channel.. works great.. I had a power hub before but my two Xone 1D's had to be fooled with everytime I Open traktor. Unistalling drivers and reinstalling the drivers. It seems be a hit or miss power issue. Sometimes one 1D (A) will work and not the 1D (B), reboot my machine and 1D(B) worked but not the 1D(A). I got this powered USB HUB (avobe) 500mAh per channel USB hub and my problems went away. I assume the same issue happens with the X1. Specially with alll those cool leds.
Hope this helps.

 

So no one is using express card instead of powered USB hubs?

 

Finally I got an express card with 4 USB for 20€ so far is working great and no need of power adapter (I hate power adapters in the booth...)

 

What one did you get bud

 

I got this one:

http://www.delock.com/produkte/gruppen/Express-Card/Delock_Express_Card_4x_USB_20_66207.html

I just got it and so far no problems. I connect 2 Kontrol Ones and 1 Kontrol X1 to the express card and powers the devices fine. And no power adapter...

 

for those who have express card ports, should use a pcmcia - usb adapter. solves any problem of internal address by sharing the same usb with 2 x1s and of course solves any problem with power