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macOS Big Sur and S4 MK3

Discussion in 'KONTROL S2 / KONTROL S3 / KONTROL S4' started by kokernutz, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. kokernutz

    kokernutz Active Member

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    I see the NI support doc about Big Sur... namely that it's possible that your S4 MK3 could be DAMAGED by updating to Big Sur.

    Is that the case only if you use TT mode? I saw the video that someone made where the platters move very erratically after upgrading.

    Can we get some clarification, NI? If you don't use TT mode, is it safe (literally) to upgrade?

    https://support.native-instruments....013515618-macOS-11-Big-Sur-Compatibility-News
     
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  2. kokernutz

    kokernutz Active Member

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    446
    For what it's worth, I did upgrade to Big Sur. Traktor Pro 3.4 seems fine, and I'll use my X1/Z1 for the time being.

    (And a new M1 MacBook Air is on the way... Geekbench scores it as 2x-3x faster than my current quad core 2018 MBP.)
     
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  3. Fergal Fennessy

    Fergal Fennessy New Member

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    do we know when we get an update on this?
     
  4. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    I was recently "forced" into a Big Sur upgrade (logic board replaced on my computer, etc...) and I can confirm that the MK3 works very poorly. I made sure to leave my jog wheels off so I'm not worried about physical damage to the unit, but I was seeing a 1-2 second delay between changes on the hardware and in the software. Avoid at all costs until this is solved (which hopefully is soon).
     
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  5. Fergal Fennessy

    Fergal Fennessy New Member

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    thanks for the heads up been avoiding the update!
     
  6. Yorge

    Yorge New Member

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    hmm, I probably have the same issue as you. Seeing 1-2seconds delay too (my thread). So the problem is Big Sur? But I can't get it why developers from Native Instruments can't optimize their software to Big Sur, because first beta was released in June (for developers)
     
  7. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    Tell me about it. NI has been doing this for YEARS now. They love to act like something changed at the veeeeerrrry last minute and there was no way they could have fixed it before...
     
  8. Yorge

    Yorge New Member

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    This is insane. I bought new MacBook + new S4 MK3 and what I can do? NI is one of the biggest companies in the world focusing on DJ tools and they can't optimize this. OH MY…
     
  9. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    Well, in all fairness, NI isn't doing all that great on the financial front. But yes, this clearly should have been ready to go by now.
     
  10. ErikMinekus

    ErikMinekus NI Product Owner

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    966
    Because Apple has been known for making major changes to their OSes right before release, so DJ companies don't want to waste time by testing things twice.

    This happens every year, so it's quite astonishing that people still think they can update to a new macOS release right away and expect everything to just work. NI even sends out an email every year warning you not to update.
     
  11. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    LOL. Good one.
     
  12. ErikMinekus

    ErikMinekus NI Product Owner

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    966
    What do you mean? Apple breaks DJ hardware with macOS updates all the time, maybe do some research.
     
  13. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    Do some research? Oh you mean like having used Traktor since the very first version came out for the Mac. Check. Or having owned multiple units of every version of the S4, the S8, F1, Machine, Kontrol? Check...

    NI has used this line EVERY TIME this has happened yet. Not once have they said "hey, you know what, we actually didn't bother testing this until the very last minute and it bit us in the ass, our bad." Sure Apple breaks things. They don't do it all at the last minute. There's no releasing a Golden Master and then doing a public release that breaks DJ hardware. That's what NI and a lot of other devs would LIKE us to believe but it's not true. Kind of like how Adobe acted like they didn't have literal YEARS to transition Photoshop to Carbon and then complained about it once Apple finally dropped the axe on it. I'm not saying Apple is entirely blameless, but let's not pretend that everything was working great with Big Sur until the Golden Master came out and then it broke all of a sudden because THAT's a lie. The vast majority of major changes are announced years in advance. Not working with something like the M1 that Apple keeps very close to the vest until launch right out of the gate is understandable. Not working across OS updates is less so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  14. ErikMinekus

    ErikMinekus NI Product Owner

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    966
    I didn't say it happens between the Golden Master and the public release, as there's only like a week between those.
     
  15. gmint

    gmint NI Product Owner

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    1,804
    Right. There's A WEEK. That's a week plus two more weeks since the release. You expect me to believe that NI can't even get a beta to address this out of the door in that period of time? Give me a break. Your screen mod is definitely a nice addition to the resume if you're looking to get hired by NI. But how about you let your skills speak for themselves and not resort to ass kissing... ;)
     
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  16. ErikMinekus

    ErikMinekus NI Product Owner

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    966
    NI is unable to release regular Traktor updates, which tells me there's no roadmap either. So no, I'm not looking to get hired by them ;)
     
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  17. Joe121

    Joe121 NI Product Owner

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    294
    The original report was made by myself, this was with TT mode disabled (motors off). Traktor makes note of the jogwheel position pithing the drivers somewhere. When the cogwheel is moved, the position will update.

    Because of the 2 second delay that occurs between the S4 and Traktor, when moving the jogwheel, the drivers automatically detect that the position is incorrect and then tries to correct it by moving the jogwheel back to where it was. Then whilst updating the position 2 seconds later, it will move it forward and back again and so on.

    That's my interpretation of it anyway.
     
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  18. Robb Correll

    Robb Correll New Member

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    Joe 121 gave a big heads up about the issue with the S4 on 23 June 2020: "Seeing as I'm coding a lot for the S4 screens, I decided to check the compatibility with Big Sur. When running the S4, AppleUserHIDDrivers will shoot up to ~85% CPU usage. This causes a delay of about 5 seconds between button presses on the controller. Also, when moving the jogwheels, there's a slight delay, then they just have a mind of their own."

    NI's answer was dismissive: "We only post statements about not updating to a final version of a OS not a beta version. Using a beta version is at your own risk."

    Did they hope the problem would magically disappear before the public release?

    There was plenty of time to address the issue - or at least give a clear warning to product owners before the release of the new OS.

    I unfortunately did not get any notification about compatibility issues before the release of Big Sur - even though my products are registered - and was in the middle of a gig when I noticed I had a very very big problem. Ended up having to manage the whole set using key commands. I had upgraded the week before and practiced the night before using my S2, which - I mistakenly thought - indicated there were no problems. Luckily, the hardware doesn't seem to have been damaged, but I, of course, can't use it.

    If NI is not doing so well on the financial front - as someone above suggested - my experience suggests there might be reason for that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
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  19. kokernutz

    kokernutz Active Member

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    446
    Has anyone tried macOS 11.1 RC?
     
  20. Benzene963

    Benzene963 New Member

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    I sympathize with your experience, but I have also done (Upgrade to Mac Big Sur), but it was not forced, and nothing bad happened,to a large extent it depends on how you upgraded Big sur on Mac.
    If you need to create an Apple ID,it is best to download it on the Apple Beta Software download page on your Mac https://developer.apple.com/download/ .
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020