Maschine 1.8.1 Sample Edit Issue!

i agree, this is not a bug it is 'by design'

here are my thoughts are looking at this closely over the weekend


in terms of the video - shown in the original post - there does not seem to be any difference with the Attack and Decay knobs. in that , if you just use the knobs, you get huge changes. this was the same with 1.7. so yes, what you see in the video with 1.8, was/is the same with 1.7.

of more concern is editing Start and End points. i feel the problem is with the Zoom knobs, in that there does not seem to be much of a difference between moving knob 5 and holding Shift and moving knob 5.

moving Start and End points are definitely different with 1.8. Knobs 1 and 2 are definitely more course and using Shift with these knobs, is definitely more 'fine' . this is okay if you get the zoom setting okay, but for me that is not so easy.

so.... if the zoom settings when using Shift + Zoom had a finer resolution, then it would be easy to set a good zoom setting and that would mean using the Start and End knobs would be easy. at the moment, it is very 'clunky' getting the zoom just right so that when you just move the Start and End points with the knobs - without using Shift - you will get a jerky movement.

for me, if i get the zoom spot on, i can get very accurate movements of the Start and End points just by moving the knobs, but i am not funding it that easy to get a good zoom setting.

having such a fine resolution when using Shift in combination with the knobs make it a lot easier to get 'sample accurate' edits now with 1.8 which was not easy in 1.7.

but for me it is now more difficult to to just use the Start and End knobs because it is not easy to get the zoom setting at the same time.

sowari

 

This is problematic in Sampler for me as well.

Could this be a difference in MKI and MK2 HW/new drivers?

 

if you're not really into sampling it might not be a bug but if you are it's a giant bug.

 

it is actually not a bug it is 'by design'

please read my post above and say whether you agree with my comments and issues.

what we need to discuss, is how we want the controls to behave for the workflow that best suits all of us.

sowari

 

sorry, but what do you mean that is problematic in Sampler

please elaborate.

sowari

 

he's saying the same thing I am. I have a question.

Sowari I read your post, I don't understand why you're approaching the trim issue from the zoom knobs, chronologically imho the sample trimming path begins with the trim, then if adjustments are needed next would come the zoom knobs, followed by more trimming.

most people sampling a piece of audio do just that sample the 'piece' of audio that's needed, waiting for the part of the sample you want to become audible and sampling that snippet. The prior trim fashion is closer to the norm for this. Next in commonality would be those who just chunk a whole tune into the sampler and go from there chopping out bits, those folks need to start with a coarse trim, I think the fine trim should come first without the need to hold the shift button or anything, then if you need a coarse trim we should be able to apply the shift button or turn the trim knob faster to cover more ground… it just makes sense to me.

 

^^^^^^^^^^ Agree with this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry sowari but I hate to think the jacked up Sample Points is by design.
It has to be a broken function.

It's not about coarse and fine editing in it's current state you have;
Super Coarse and Super Fine.
Zoom doesn't improve it and really Zoom shouldn't be necessary to edit a wave file.

To further complicate it even if you want to edit by ear which many of us do, the controls make it impossible with their two current modes of movement.

 

sorry, but i have to disagree.

if i use Peak to 'trim a sample', i always use some degree of zooming to get a more accurate edit, whether it is a 'ruff edit' or a totally zoomed in 'sample accurate edit'

when i edit samples in Maschine i always use the zoom knobs in combination with the Start and End knobs. i got totally used to working like this with 1.7.

for me this is like driving a car. if you go round a tight corner, you don't do this in 4th gear, you change down to 3rd and then 2nd. for me the Zoom knobs are the different gears which let you have greater control of the steering wheel.

maybe reverse parking is a better analogy - if you don't get the car into the correct position - zooming - then you don't stand any chance of parking correctly - using the Start and End knobs.

sowari

 

i am pretty almost 100% certain that this is by design.

seriously, there is no point in you guys saying this is a bug.

what you need to do is to talk about an 'Improvement Request' and then we might move forward.

believe me, saying it is a bug is not going to achieve anything.

sowari

 

but in most sampling you only need to zoom if you are not anywhere near the sample you want to edit within a wavform, but when you're listening to audio and you hear the downbeat of the sample you want come up, and right before it press sample, you don't need to use zoom first, you need to trim first, shave off the first beat or two before the sample, then zoom in and trim to the zero point mark.

what you've describe is more akin to what I was talking about folks importing a whole tune into a sampler, I'm not disputing your methodology, just the chronology at which it takes place and also we might not be debating on which is the more common form of sampling the one where you wait for the sample snippet like I described and sample at that time or the one you're describing where you have a whole file in a computer audio editor.

one thing we def agree on, this issue is not going to get very far.
---
most people sample like this

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5loh9DASKHQ"]Maschine Tutorial #11: Sampling Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

 

If this is by design then NI assumed the world edits with their eyes not their ears.

Very false thought as well as an uneasy feeling about their direction with the sample engine.

 

true but what if we are the only two on the forum who edit samples with our ears hahahahaha……… ish ain't funny:angry:

 

okay, if we take the example of the video that theinvis refers to - you are not going to get an accurate truncate unless you use some degree of zoom.

so i presume if you are using your ears, you play the sample at a much lower pitch because as far as i am concerned that is the only way you are going to get an accurate Start-time.

just in case people think i don't think there is an issue. i agree there is an issue but i am not it is with the Start and End knobs - personally, i think it is with with the Zoom settings.

sowari

 

@sowari, you speak of using shift to zoom. In 1.7 you did not need to touch shift and I do not think the workflow should revolve around or be dependent on shift which is an extra awkward button press. Zoom is too jumpy. It is bad enough we need to zoom for precision, to then need to use shift to make the zoom usable is over the top. Forget about shift!

I agree with the others that sample edit starts with the sample start and end knobs. The workflow should start there and be the primary focus for how the knobs react and zoom should be secondary. I also agree that more often scenario for most will be dealing with loops or chunks of audio vs chopping a whole song so the workflow should favor that. In that case you don't need such a rough course knob movement.

Start end knobs should get you at least real close without touching zoom or shift. When you need more precision, you should be able to smoothly zoom in just a little for the needed precision. You should not have to zoom all the way in and loose sight of the waveform, nor should shift come into the equation. Shift should only be used rarely when you need to increment to the sample level. And zoom should not be hard to use or jump around when you need it.

Most are saying they prefer the way the knobs worked in 1.7 and the way the slice screen works now. The issue is with BOTH start/end AND zoom knobs. NI should simply change it back period.

 

is there a place on the forum site to tell NI to fix this? regardless if its by design or a bug IMO its a backwards step for work flow.

 

sorry, but i am coming from a different perspective which is having really accurate start and end points.

i don't think that Shift makes any difference to zoom - at least with 1.7.2. and after consideration i agree with you that you should not have to use shift + zoom to get a good zoom setting.

for me, makes total sense to me that we should use a combination of a Zoom and the Start and End knobs to get accurate Start and End Points, that is how - as far as i am concerned, this is how it worked with 1.7.2. so i disagree with you about not having to touch the Zoom knobs in 1.7.2, but i agree with you about the Zoom knobs being 'too jumpy'.

surely, the new 'course settings' for the Start and End Points , makes it a lot quicker to move around long samples? before, you had to do multiple turns to shift them. but if you increase the zoom, you increase the resolution of the Start and End knobs and make them easier to manipulate.

so for my workflow, the issue is with Zoom and how it works in combination with the Start and End knobs.

just to clarify, in 1.7.2 i don't really have to use Shift, because i can get really accurate Stand and End points just by using a combination of Knobs 1, 2, and 5, and 6.

sowari

 

To clarify, I was not saying not having to touch the zoom. I said you should not have to touch shift other than editing down at sample level. I agree with you on using zoom with start end for precision. That is how I always did it. Even in 1.7 I would have to zoom in just little bit to get it where I want precision wise. However, I feel you should be able to get at least real close without zoom. Also, you should not have to zoom so far that you lose total sight of the overall waveform drawing just to get desired precision. Right now, both zoom and start markers are just too rough and you have to zoom in way to far. I think the res is now set at 1/2 that of 1.7. for sample start and zoom. Maybe if it was at least 3/4 it would be more usable.

 

okay, can we clarify your post further:

when you say you zoomed in just little bit to get it where I want precision wise, did you then use Shift + Start?

becuase personally i would just use a combination of Zoom and Start and not touch the Shift knob. by doing that, i would indeed loose site of the overall wave. but then i used to that behavior with Peak and/or Logic - except that Peak and Logic also have a small version of the overall waveform as well as the zoomed in wave.

okay, i am just working with 1.7.2: for me it is impossible to get an accurate Start Time on a 4 bar sample without zooming in and as a result loosing the overall waveform. if you don't zoom, you are not editing the sample precisely.

also, in 1.7.2 the Zoom knob seems a bit 'clunky'.

moreover, i don't think that Start + Shift has really changed since 1.7.2.

actually, i am having a closer look at Zoom - button 5 - + Shift. that feels quite good in 1.7.2. i need to compare the behavior with 1.8.1. i will do so in a few hours.

sowari

 

No! there was no need to because the start end marks were precise enough to get the mark really close even all the way zoomed out.

Same here. Only even though it would loose visual of SOME of the waveform, you only had to zoom a little bit to get precise. In 1.72 I barely had to nudge the zoom to get the desired edit precision because the start end knob was already more precise. In 1.8 you have to zoom almost all the way in to match the edit precision of 1.7 with just the first zoom level. At this point the waveform is unrecognizable. With the slight amount of zoom needed in 1.7 you could still see where you are at in the waveform. This is on top of the fact that 1.7 zoom was smoother without needing shift.

Nope! 1.8 zoom is clunky because it is too coarse. 1.72 was smooth as butter. It was only clunky when you zoomed all the way in. It would jump on the last zoom level. This was okay because you simply never needed to zoom that far to get it where you want.

 

heh yeah, i generally use both edit modes - best of both worlds. i pull in a 5 minute track, cut out maybe 4 or so 4 bar loops by ear in the edit screen. it is easy to dial in a precise start point using zoom+start together, sometimes i leave a bit of extra length at the end. then i go to each of the 4 8-second pads i've made and slice em to get interesting chops.

i usually use detect or 16 slices - and then go to edit, zoom in pretty tight and fix up the start marker so they aren't cutting the waveform weirdly, then apply those to groups/pads.

doing this kind of workflow is a breeze cos the edit screen is much faster now - for me. if i was trying to get 1 bar loops from a 5 minute track in the edit screen, i would be pretty frustrated. but i don't, so i ain't!