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maschine 2.8.4 and higher and automap wrapped plugins (bug?)

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Howl, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    i use automap, yeah yeah. from version 2.8.5 i noticed a different behavior when starting maschine, all new plugins i bought, and where automapped.. where re-scanned at startup.
    the behavior: if start maschine the automap version will be loaded, next time i start machine the none automap version will be loaded. and so on.

    a toggle (not a native speaker).

    i was using windows 7 pro, but that installation had problems, so i upgraded to windows 10 pro.

    the behavior that i was afraid of; it now affects all plugins that are automapped. i am not yet ready with reinstalling everything, but did the test.. with plugins that i am installing.

    i own maschine 2.x for 2 years or so, never had this behavior problem.

    so: when starting maschine it rescans the automapped plugins; when last the time i started maschine it was the automapped version of the plugin, it loads the non-automapped version and when the last time it was the none automapped version of the plugin that was the chosen one (..), it loads the automapped version of the plugin.

    the normal behavior was: both versions where loaded, not always, in the sense, that certain plugins only showed as the automapped versions (which also happens in cubase, for some plugins). no problem.
    it was stable, no rescans.
     
  2. b-r@nno

    b-r@nno NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    304
    am i right in assuming we are not discussing "NI's own Plugins" when you say automapped plugins?
    maybe people here can help better if you clear this up for us: automapping which plugins to which controller? maschine itself?..
     
  3. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    didn't test NI's plugins yet, third party plugins. automap works indepently, it has a "server", i have a novation sl 49 mkii and a zero sl mkii, they have automap. automap is program from novation, for some of their controllers. only novation controllers are connected to automap.

    now did test also NI's plugins same behavior.

    automap makes duplicate of every plugin, a wrapper. many people don't like it, i like it, because it works..

    no problems in cubase 10 pro, reaper 5.x, ableton live 10 suite.

    i don not use automap a lot for maschine. but for cubase, for instance, instensively.

    something has changed in scanning vst2 plugins within the maschine software. the first time i noticed this behavior, i should have report here, or via support. because now i do recall that easy with which version it started, 2.8.5 is my best guess. or 2.8.6...

    strangely on windows 7, it didn't rescan the plugins that where are already installed, only the plugins i installed after the update to maschine 2.8.5 (or 2.8.6). i did a rescan within maschine, and all went well for the plugins already installed. for the newer ones this behavior stayed a problem.
     
  4. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    i am calling the genie in a bottle, if it isn't appropriate, my apologies.
    Kai @ NI is there a change in scanning from version 2.8.5 (my best guess, it happened 2 months ar so, or earlier), of the vst plugins, a change how they "read out", via ID, i don't the vst SDK, and identiefiers..

    EDIT: again i emphasize it does not happen with ableton live 10 suite, reaper 5.9xxx, cubase 10.0.4 pro.
    almost a year and a halve, or more, never had this behavior. something must be changed, because it happened after i installed (probably) 2.8.5.
    never assume too much, but it happens on windows 7 ánd windows 10. i do not recall that it was after an update of windows 7, that i was using at that time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  5. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    EDIT: i can make workarounds, i also have a nektar panorama p1, for plugins that are only vst2. FM8 i have an automap, made by someone else, that can control every paramater (shown to the host..), great for programming with a hardware feel.
    but if maschine goes vst3, and the same problem occurs, it would influence my workflow immensely.
    automap can not be stopped, in a sense. and the wrappers will exist, and it is too much trouble to de-automap when using maschine. because some plugins do not like it, a few. but i have to manually disable them, again and again.

    why so much trouble asking for this problem, i depend on automap, even it isn't supported anymore.

    EDIT: sorry created by accident a new post...

    EDIT: sometimes i think i am the only automap user, that uses if full potential.. maybe i am wrong...

    EDIT: i use the latest maschine 2.8.7
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  6. b-r@nno

    b-r@nno NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    304
    sorry to hear you've got so many troubles...
    as i don't own any automap software i'm sorry i can't help you.

    but: as you write it has a server. is it possible that the communication get's somehow blocked by windowsfirewall or something like that? that a recent windowsupdate broke something?

    best of luck to you
     
  7. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    thank you for your reply. it is not really a server, it is called a server as it hosts controllers. it does however ask permission for windows firewall, and it has.

    nothing was changed, as far i can recall, i use the same automap version since march 2019, it works for all programs, it is an a way program indepent, for instance maschine isn't supported by automap, but that only means: no mixer and transport control. the wrapped plugins are recognized by automap when they are loaded so i can use automap within maschine.

    but it isn't important if the wrapped plugins work.

    it is the strange behavior the first the wrapped plugin is recognized, and the next the none wrapped, and so on.
    they interchange between "sessions" (in the sense starting maschine and stopping maschine as standalone).

    i thought about a windows update, but why only maschine? a windows update broke my cubase, on win 7, that's why i went to win 10, it was already time, didn't want to troubleshoot.

    a virusscanner can be, sometimes, a problem. but i deinstalled the virusscanner. and reinstalled another one...

    that automap wants a port for the firewall, has to do more with the way it works, with bonjour. i have forgotten how that precisily works. and some other stuff.

    wait a minute, i think maschine uses that also.

    but it was never a problem.

    i shall make a support ticket. many plugins i use are vst3, the vst2 ones that i really need to have automap, i have wrapped, so it does not take that long.

    for troubleshooting i shall install an earlier version of maschine, if i can find one.. 2.8.4 must be the one, me thinks.

    thank you, for your first reply, it forced me to make a better description of the problem.

    and thanks for your kind words!

    also, good luck!
     
  8. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    i made a support ticket, the first one a few days ago. there are no support tickets anymore it seems like, only a community, where you post your problem.

    that gives a problem, my support ticket was misunderstood, it isn't an automap problem, nor a novation problem, it is the problem how the maschine software handles wrapped plugins. suddenly, after an update... of maschine...
    automap works no problems.. it is the way maschine handles the 2 "plugins" (one of the two is a wrapper).

    now i have the problem: it is answered, but it is the wrong answer. it is about the behavior of maschine, not of automap.

    and i can't comment on it!
     
  9. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    this is the behavior; i make it simple.

    i have 2 plugins:

    RC24
    RC48

    i wrapped them:

    RC24 (automap)
    RC24
    RC48 (automap)
    RC24

    i start the maschine software: it loads

    RC24 (automap)
    RC48 (automap)

    i quit maschine

    i start the maschine software, it rescans the plugins as RC24/RC48 and it loads:

    RC24
    RC48

    i quit maschine

    i start the maschine software, it rescans the pluigins as RC24 (automap)/RC48 (automap) and it loads:

    RC24 (automap)
    RC48 (automap)

    and on and on and on...

    within maschine when i used a plugin, for example "replika xt (automap)", and replika xt was loaded this time as the unwrapped version, it still uses the right plugin. within maschine no problems, which is the normal behavior, when the wrapped plugin isn't there it loads the normal plugin.

    or a better explained: when the maschine software is running, and i open an "old" project that has for instance "replika xt (automap)", and it has rescanned it as "replika xt", so "replika xt (automap)" can not be chosen, it loads "replika xt". so no problems (i can't use automap, but the time of rescanning is my main problem).

    Mick @ NI , sorry to call genie in a bottle, but i can't comment at a closed thread in the support community.

    am i not clear? the problem was never there, until an update come for maschine. it sees the plugins as different and not-different...

    the problem lies that it rescans every time the wrapped plugins, and change everytime its mind, it alternates, when it rescans between the wrapped and the original plugin.

    EDIT: and one of the solutions given, what can't help was rescanning the NKS library, that has nothing to do with it...
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  10. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    you must always rule out things. i saw an installer for version maschine 2.8.2, so i installed it over 2.8.7 (or it refuses.... the known "error").
    now, on my laptop, maschine 2.8.2 is installled. and automap 4.13b2 (also tried 4.12 just to be sure).

    in maschine 2.8.2 the problem is completely gone. normal behavior. wrapped plugin and unwrapped plugin are next together, the be choosen.
    for example: i can load "RC 24" or "RC 24 (automap)".
    it understands that they are different plugins, but when you remove the automap version, it will still load "RC 24" as expected, that is the normal behavior, even if the project used "RC 24 (automap)".
    it also knows that they are the same.. (in 2.8.7 this behavior is not broken.)


    no rescans with every startup!!


    this confirms: it is the maschine software that makes a mistake, with rescanning. that wasn't present in earlier version. my guess is it started with 2.8.5.

    i couldn't get hold on 2.8.4 or 2.8.5.

    but: it isn't a novation problem nor an automap problem, maschine identifies VST's in a different way.

    why such a fuzz about it? rescanning takes time, and i need automap...

    the problem is now identified, or the source: 2.8.7 (and/or 2.8.5 and 2.8.6, 2.8.6 had certainly the problem already).

    EDIT: they both use bonjour, can that be the problem?

    EDIT 2: not unexpected, because 2.8.2 made a plugin database, 2.8.7 does not rescan anymore. but if i wrap a new plugin, that i didn't wrapped before. that plugin will rescan. so this is a workaround, but not the solution. so troubleshooting, making the steps, has given me a temporaly fix. untill i install a new plugin, and on my laptop i did wrap i only a few plugins. so..

    EDIT 3: the problem is on 2 systems, that are different in windows 10 version, one is home, one is pro. not that big a difference. both fully up to date (1903 + all updates). the behavior was also on windows 7. it seems to rule out a windows problem, but i can not check that.

    EDIT 4: the behavior can be reproduced, simply by installing automap and wrap some vst2 plugins. you do not have to have a novation keyboard, although it is useless, but you can witness the behavior.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  11. PhRX

    PhRX NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1
    I see pretty much the exact same behaviour. Also running the latest versions of Maschine (2.8.5) and Automap (4.12). The VSTs are rescanned every single Maschine restart.

    I moved all Automap versions of the plugins out of the Maschine VST locations, that made the problem disappear.

    I did notice Maschine still kept spending a little time, but noticeable, scanning some other plugins every time, and by inspecting all VST locations (from Maschine preferences) I found out these plugins were duplicated in 2 locations. Removing those made Maschine start up noticeably faster too.

    The problem seems to lie in what Maschine considers as "duplicate plugins". Presumably, the automapped versions are seen as duplicates of the non-automapped versions (which should actually not count as duplicates).
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  12. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,087
    I dont have 2.8.5 so can't validate the bug but AFAIK NI doesn't make bugfixes for older versions, only new ones, so yall might have to live with this bug forever if you dont update.
     
  13. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    in 2.8.2, for example the problem, does not exist. and i use now 2.8.7. i run automap 4.13b2. does not make i difference. the problem lies in the in scan app, as i wrote in community ticket support, or whatever you call it. they seem to take to problem not seriously, because they think the problem lies elsewhere. when a wrapped plugin is loaded, in a session (maschine standalone launch/close), automap works... so within maschine itself there is no problem with wrapped plugins. it is the scan app, that also crashes.. silently..

    in 2.8.7 same behavior, in 2.8.2 for example not. i repeat when in a session, and that time the wrapped plugins are loaded, the automap wrapped plugins work, and i can control them with my 2 novations controllers.

    it's almost certainly a bug, but i get no response anymore, i what i cal in community support. the first ticket they closed, this ticket is still open, but it says answered if i remember correctly.

    i am glad, that someone else has the same behavior, not many people use automap...

    it is not a automap problem, nor a novation/focusrite problem, the problem lies in the scan app. that changed it's behavior.

    again i repeat; 2.8.2 (rene must be unique, had a link here somewhere) works as expected, from 2.8.5 the problems appear.

    it is the scan app, and gives a silent crash, you see it in the logs. not always strangely enough. but most of the times.

    it could handle automap wrapped plugins, the scan app, now it doesn't.

    EDIT: the new "ticket" system, or isn't new, because this is the first time i report a bug (al other bugs where already discovered by others..). no direct e-mail contact is possible, only when someone decides to that. that makes communication problamitic, because if an answer is wrong, they seem not pay attention anymore. perhaps they read my last post, on my recquest the thread is open, so i can react. closing a thread/ticket, without to be able to respond... o well.

    the problem is real...
     
  14. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,355
    @ Howl
    Which version do you want for testing?

    René
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  15. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    2.8.2 was pretty good, but it helps if i can pinpoint when the problem started, i guess 2.8.5.

    if you have 2.8.5 i can test if the problem occurs, there, and perhaps 2.84... which must be latest version that this problem didn't have.

    i normally keep older versions, for a time, but not with NI plugins...

    thanks for your reply! dank!
     
  16. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,355
    No thanks you are welcome.
    If you have an answer to your question, report it as a bug via the regular route.

    René
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    thanks! i already am reporting via the regular route, i will write a new "comment", based on what happens, with these versions.

    thanks, again!
     
  18. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    version 2.8.4 has the same problem as 2.8.5 and higher. it started with 2.8.4 or perhaps with 2.8.3....

    version 2.8.2, the version that i can test, works.

    EDIT: René must be Unique fo you have also 2.8.3. dan kan ik het zeer precies aangeven wanneer het begint.

    EDIT: when you use an older version to make the database, the problem also disappears, because the database isn't affected when rescanning... this is a workaround, not a solution.

    for PhRX i attached the 2.8.2, install it over 2.8.5 (or 2.8.7), it will ask if you want to downgrade, yes of course. with this version you can make a database. if you buy a plugin, afterwards, the problem will reoccur of course. or you install a plugin that you didn't had installed...

    the 2.8.2 is also from René must be Unique , pretty great that René has older versions.

    i will also keep the ollder versions, if someone needs them, but René must be Unique is the to go to guy for this! yeah!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  19. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,087
    Apologies, I didn't fully understand what you were reporting the first time I read it, the thread is a bit confusing.

    In fewer words the problem is:
    1 - Novation Automap works by creating a duplicate of a Plugin, loading it in Maschine it works correctly but when you close Maschine and load the project again it loads the original instead of the Automap version... Is this correct?
    2 - Since Maschine see's a "new" plugin it triggers a rescan?

    It looks like the Scanapp is the issue, can you try something?
    - Install the working old version, MAS 2.8.2, go to C:\Program Files\Common Files\Native Instruments\Maschine 2 and look for ScanPluginsApp_x64.exe, copy it somewhere.
    - Update to latest Maschine version, replace the new scanapp with the old one from 2.8.2 you copied in the previous step.
    - Test if it works.
     
  20. Howl

    Howl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    243
    that can also be a solution. yes my reporting is confusing, i suffer from writing too much and not to the point...

    perhaps that confuses also the people who respondend in the ticket community. but i think it is clear now.

    answers:

    1. yes
    2. yes