Maschine Audio Export Signal Flow?

Hi all..

FIrstly, disclaimer... not a noob, just had to create a new account because I no longer have the p/word for my old one, and the email account it was registered with doesn't exist anymore. I dug around on the forums and elsewhere, but haven't come across a solution yet.

I'm trying to get a nice workflow happening to get stems of all my Maschine sounds into Pro Tools audio tracks, so I can take the session into other studio's and mix using Neve, SSL consoles etc.

I know there's the export audio option, and you can select 'sound outputs', but the results never sound similar to what I have in Maschine. Can anyone clarify the signal flow of how the export audio option works in conjunction with processing that is in Maschine? Is it bypassing plugins at pad, group, or master level etc?

I've even tried using the 'group output' option, soloing each pad and exporting each one individually to see if the signal flow of pad -> group would include all the processing and sound the same as in Maschine (I don't have processing on the Maschine master), but it still sounds dramatically different.

This is the last hurdle I need to overcome for Maschine to do everything I want, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

 

Man, you are asking the question of ALL TIME. I have been scratching my head at this for over a year and half owning Maschine. I'm sad to say I don't have an answer because Maschine export SUCKS. It's one of the major flaws of this whole system that makes me want to bash the hardware against the wall. I know EXACTLY what you are saying about it sounding different. I've never gotten the "export audio" function to work properly for me. The way I understand it is if you are going to export from "sound sources" you must mix solely on the sound level. That includes all plugins, and volume. Which is a pain in the a**. And vice-versa. If you are going to export group (which I doubt you will cuz who wants to mix a whole drum group as one?) Then all plugins and mixing must be done at the group level. The best, semi working solution I have found is to use drag and drop feature. You still have to be aware of some things like, chokes not being activated. But if you solo each pad, then drag and drop from the group stage, the signal should go through both sound and group channels. Therefore getting your whole mix to sound the same. Still often artifacts arise and you constantly have to play with turning "loop optimize" on and off.

Summary: NATIVE INSTRUMENTS PLEASE FIX THIS!!

 

When you export audio, it exports at the point in the signal flow that you tell it in export option in the file menu. First, you need to understand the audio signal flow of Maschine as well as basic audio signal flow of audio mixers in general.

The signal flow is hierarchical starting at the instrument level>sound plugin chains,2,3 etc.>sound volume>group plugin 1,2,3 etc.>group volume>master plugin 1,2,3 etc. >master volume.

If you are exporting sounds, you are tapping the signal prior to any effects at the group level and prior to group volume and beyond. Exporting sounds stops at the point of the individual sounds volume. This is universal in any DAW or even hardware mixer and is known as exporting stems. All DAW's behave exactly the same in this regard other than some may allow the option to tap the signal pre or post the channel fader. In Maschine this is post the sound fader.

To get an accurate monitor of what you are exporting, neutralize the volume and bypass all plugins from the point of export up. So if exporting sounds, make sure the group is exactly 0 unity gain and all group effects bypassed. Do the same for the master plugin chain and volume. This will allow you to monitor at the sound level where it is exporting in a neutral state with no further processing that will not be in the stem. Now solo each sound and listen.

Use Maschines Mixer to monitor the levels of the individual sounds output as this is what will be exported.

 

To add, check the export options for bit rate and sample rate. Maschine works internally at 32 bit float so you should export to 32 bit if you are going to import these files to a DAW for further processing. Sample rate should always match the current sample rate of the project. Loop optimaize is a truncating feature that should be off unless you have a specific need for it.

You can apply the same theory above to the group level where exporting groups is taped at the group fader. master should be unity gain and all master effects bypassed for an accurate monitor.

 

Nothing to fix. Simply a matter of you understanding how this works. Like I said, all DAW's have a signal flow and exporting stems will always tap the signal at some point in the chain. Anything beyond that point will not be a part of the stem. If you expect otherwise, this is illogical and actually defies basic laws of physics.

 

I will add that if you are exporting stems this means you intend to mix in your DAW and therefore have no business with any effects or volume changes beyond the point of the stems.

 

Thanks for the replies... I understand signal flow, I just couldn't find anywhere that showed what the signal flow of Maschine's mixer was, and have used enough software to know making assumptions is not always beneficial

Your replies confirm what I suspected... I'm just going to have to be mindful of using kits etc that have any processing beyond pad/sound level.

Surely it's not impossible to allow different signal flow options for the export though?... it would potentially take longer for processing, but I think it would make using Maschine much more user friendly in other environments. It's a sound engineer's nature to be efficient (lazy) after-all

As for 32bit float... I understand the headroom benefits internally, but doubt I'll ever be able to hear the difference between 24 and 32bit in regards to dither / quantization error. Maybe if I end up with 32bit converters and a bionic ear one day that will change, but at my age hearing is all downhill from here

 

The audio is already 32 bits, leave it there until final master. Why degrade the audio to any extent for no good reason?
As far as the export options, you can export groups instead of sounds or you can export the master.

Beyond that, this would be the part that is a mathematical physics issue.
So you have 4 smaller water pipes that join to one. You add chemical compound A to the individual water pipes. You then add another compound later down the line to the larger pipe that the 4 pipes join to. The chemical that you add at the large singular pipe reacts to the compound A based on the amount of compound A that is present. Different amounts give a different result to the reaction.

Now you are redirecting two of the smaller pipes to another destination and tapping them before they arrive at the large pipe and mix with that compound. Yet, you want an option to tap one of the smaller pipes but have the same chemical reaction that is taking place at the large pipe when compound A and compound B mix with the exact same chemical reaction that is based on ratio. Simply impossible. The chemical B is over there at the larger pipe and is added after all pipes and all compound A's are joined.

 

Now take the above and add chemical x to two of the smaller pipes that also reacts to chemical B based on amount. You can't get the same result by tapping two of the smaller pipes.

 

You are awfully condescending for a moderator. First off I have plenty of years experience and recording degree to know what "DAWs do". Secondly your not entirely right nor do I think you understand what is being asked. I can group things in Pro Tools and still export stems that have been affected by the group signal chain. Or have you never worked inside pro tools? Certainly that's a DAW that even the most righteous recording artists like you understand? The point being made is that we want an easy way to export audio, that is itemized at the instrument state, to sound exactly like it does inside Maschine. To ask us to mix entirely within the individual sound state is not realistic.

 

So you can send tracks to a stereo bus in Protools and put effects and volume changes on that bus then export the individual tracks and they sound the same as the summed effected bus? How is that possible?

Or maybe you are talking about something else entirely?

 

Is it that you want to export a single element as it passes through the group or master effect chain? Like solo a kick and export through the group or master? If so, this is already possible. Simply choose master in audio export options and solo the single element. Will sound just as it does in Maschine including all effects. Just keep bit 32 and sample rate the same as project.

 

For the above you would do the export in the file export menu and not the drag and drop though. The group drag and drop does not go futher than the group level of course.

 

Or, use drag and drop.
You can mix all the way up to the group fader. Leave master effects off or bypassed and set master at unity.
Set export options to group.
Solo sound and drag.

The export will sound the same and include the soloed sound through group effects and volume.

 

I think you would have to have an NRV on each of the 4 small pipes to be absolutely certain that the chemical added to the large pipe does not seep back into the smaller pipes.

 

I could also see maybe an "export sounds through master" feature that allows faster workflow. It could simulate what you are doing when soloing each sound and listening through master. Only it would do them all 1x1 in batch as if you soloed each sound and exported to save time. This seems possible as it would not be processing the summed output of multiple sounds. If this is what you are trying to achieve then that makes more sense.

 

Please bring this issue up during the Q & A Jag! Have you mentioned this in the Sticky thread?

 

I have found that exporting from master output and soloing the pad or group to define the stem you want works reasonably well with regard to retaining master and group level FX (of course it won't preserve chokes initiated from muted tracks or any FX routed via muted pads/groups).

 

I would love to because it's one of the biggest workflow killers. When is the Q & A do you know?

 

This is exactly right, I would send to bus track the group and solo each track and freeze the bus. Except it's 100x faster in Pro Tools than Maschine. As it's done all inside the DAW. I think they could develop a similar system underneath the hood in Maschine. So you could highlight 16 pads, drag audio (stemmed) and it bring in 16 different audio tracks into your software. It would speed up workflow tenfold. Then again, fixing the midi routing so we can use that again would also do the same.