1. We're currently conducting systematic tests with the release version of macOS 11 (Big Sur) in order to offer full compatibility of our products as soon as possible. You can find our latest compatibility status - here


    Please note that although announced at the same time as macOS Big Sur, Apple Silicon processors are an independent release with separate compatibility concerns for NI products. Compatibility with macOS Big Sur will not yet ensure compatibility with Apple Silicon processors. At the moment, Native Instruments products are not supported on computers with Apple Silicon processors. Read more - here

    Dismiss Notice

Maschine jam or scam

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by bilposey, Sep 8, 2016.

  1. Goon

    Goon NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    784
    I used to won Maschine Studio, sold it due to the problems I had getting it to work with Ableton, I now have Push2 and love it, looking from my perspective, this Maschine Jam looks very very interesting. Lots of people looking at it, thinking its replacing other Maschine controllers, I see it as a useful addition to that kind of setup alongside a Studio/Micro& Mk2 setup, heck I am considering buying one myself once I have seen how it works within Ableton with the new integration for Ableton that is coming.
     
  2. erupt

    erupt NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    43
    The thing is though, it doesn't really work like that.

    For one thing, as NI have already explained, they have been and are continuing to work on sequencer and integration improvements as well as developing new hardware like JAM. It's not an either-or thing and those two things (the successful launch of JAM and continued improvements to Maschine's features) are not diametrically opposed to each other.

    But let's pretend your premise was true that those two thing are opposed to each other and we were to take your supposition to its logical extreme by all not buying JAM or any other NI product until everyone's pet feature request for Maschine was fulfilled. I'm sorry to break it to you but hurting NI's sales by encouraging people not to buy their products will NEVER result in getting your feature request being fulfilled faster. The only thing that may come out of it as a direct result is less development resources being allocated to Maschine. It's pretty simple stuff. Less Maschine-related sales, less Maschine-related development. You know what happened to products like Kore when there weren't enough sales? They discontinued Kore, instead of NI developing it even more in the hopes that people will start buying it more.

    Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic world and businesses exist to sell products in order to make more money, not to prioritize whatever other concerns a tiny fraction of their entire customer-base has over selling more products. As much as I might not care as much for more expansions or Komplete keyboards, NKS standard, Stems...etc., the fact that they exist to lay a strong foundation for NI's ecosystem and helps generate more revenue, do end up contributing to NI being able to sell more of their products including Maschine and building a stronger ecosystem, which results in NI committing even further to Maschine's development.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Dislike Dislike x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. District Onagi

    District Onagi NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    881
    I'd rather buy products from a company that has both consumers and their profits on their minds instead of a company that only considers profits. Contrary to some individuals (I'm not saying you, just in general) I believe these two things do not have to be mutually exclusive. We can have our cake and eat it too as both customers and product makers. I personally think we deserved a better more integrative product (i.e. one hardware controller not now three)... now not, but maybe a year or two years from now. I think there are other things that could be improved with Maschine environment, just my humble opinion.

    NI has discontinued products that didn't sell as well as expected, and that's fine. They have a track record; I'm not faulting them because they are a business that has to make money and answer to shareholders... But that also means that I know when something personally smells fishy. Did they release this only to capture Ableton Push 2 market, or Maschine sales are stagnating, so let's sell us more stuff? Again, no diss to JAM, I think it is a absolutely fine product.... but I will say I personally don't feel JAM was absolutely necessary to be a separate product, this could have been bundled into Maschine 3.0. Maschine is not Ableton, but Push 2 has this feature inside of it as well as maschine and KK features inside of it, and it's one product. This is three products that we are being sold that can only work with Maschine to it's full potential and the software is more of a concern to me, it's just my opinion.

    Take Apple iphone 7, with taking out the the headphone jack. If sales decrease for iphone 7 and more people continue to buy iphone 6 or sales slow, I'd bet money apple does a 180 and will re-introduce headphone jacks into iphone 7s. The market speaks for itself, and it's up to the companies that sell products to give people what they want. Sometimes companies convince people to buy things they may not even necessarily need, and NI is no different(JAM versus Maschine Studio Mk2 Maschine Mk3 with JAM inside vs what we have now). Only time will tell about the response to JAM. I wish no ill will on NI but I don't want this product right now, I want to see where everything else with Maschine is going to go. We still don't know how DAW integration is going to work or how far sequencer development are going to improve, those are more important to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
    • Like Like x 3
  4. erupt

    erupt NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    43
    I can get behind this sentiment wholeheartedly. I'm just saying that it's more of an idealistic stance than our current reality. I don't believe that NI only cares about profit and nothing else. Any successful business has to strive to accommodate its customers and balance that with staying in business in this cut-throat reality. It's just the nature of being in business in an environment like this that requires that profit margin has to be prioritized over charitable gestures, if it comes down to a choice, as sad as that is.
     
    • Dislike Dislike x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. AntonA1

    AntonA1 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,722
    That's ok...you seem like an intelligent person, so I'm sure you'll understand that I was talking about N.I. and N.I. users as a whole and not just Maschine development. Many of us who use Maschine have Traktor. Many of us who use both having been wishing for better integration and improvements in Traktor since years (you only need check the Traktor forum to see this), in parallel to improvements in Maschine. There really is no perfect place to post in regards to global issues about N.I... I choose to do it here, because this is where I've spent the majority of my time on the forum over the years.

    I realize my post could be construed by some as 'provocative'. This stems (pardon the pun) from long standing frustrations of feeling that the music company I (and most of of us on here) love and have invested in, was in a state of perpetual 'disconnect' with its user base. Not all of them, but a large chunk. Things are improving, but years of frustration are still there and won't disappear over night. We plead, because we want N.I. to succeed.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,427
    Essential feature requests, and a serious amount of bugs have been ignored for well over two years. Sprinkle on top of that a total lack of communication. In the last few months NI appears to have woken up, and now appear to want to deliver what customers want. They've also created a thread more or less admitting the sequencer is in need of serious improvement themselves. Hopefullly they will sort this. You should understand frustrated customers are going to be extremely sceptical based on past history. I'm afraid those who step in here and tell these people they are talking horse s*** aren't going to be too popular around here. We can all argue about what is going on now with NI until the cows come home, but ultimately NI will have to actually deliver to change opinions and win back customer confidence. Blind faith will only cut the mustard with some for now. Those who use a limited subset of the features it offers will probably sing it's praises and will be perfectly happy. Nobody I suspect has a problem with that.

    Recently myself.. I've come from being sceptical to being an optimist (when NI finally started communicating here) back to being sceptical again. Now I've basically given up till end of 2016. I'll make my final opinion then (when they fix it, and yes I mean "fix"). I've been using sequencers since the late 80's so I 'ruddy well know what is a good sequencer, and what is a bad one... But for now... whatever. I got bored of these conversations.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  7. Spazoo

    Spazoo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,732
    i'm still optimistic however i don't expect maschine to be in the state i would like until next year or maybe 2018. not a prob for me. i'm just glad to see progress.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. HoosierGuy

    HoosierGuy Member

    Messages:
    32
    For me it's Jam! Mine is scheduled to arrive on Tuesday and I'm really looking forward to exploring its features alongside my Studio.

    I understand some of the negative comments in this thread, but the poison I see spewed is very unlikely to accomplish anything, except to make the person posting it look like an ass. A lot more can be accomplished by voting with your wallet.

    A post was made earlier about NI being responsible to its shareholders...isn't NI a private company?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. sameer

    sameer NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    294
    i got my hands on Maschine Jam yesterday. I don't see it as a stand alone product. anyone who thinks it will behave like push2 ... NOPE.
    Though i must saty that its a good steroid injection in my workflow , since I own a Mikor MK2, There was too much button pushing involved
    They both work very very well in conjunction !
    Personally i dont think that performing grooves on the Jam is not as easy and fun as the Mikro or Push2 .{ my push 2 has eaten dust for the longest time} But playlist and sequncing is super fun and 8 faders to automate is a big big plus for my work flow

    Final thoughts :
    Jam is not a standalone device .
    Jam works stupendously well along a Mikro or studio
    It is no match to a PUSH2. have not used an APC so can't comment
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Goon

    Goon NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    784
    I use my Maschine Jam alongside Push2 inside Ableton, and the 2 togther are very nice. :)
     
  11. sameer

    sameer NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    294
    i dont use abelton live and i feel the real test of jam is outside the abelton +push world .
    thats where i feel that with the standalone application ,jam + mikro or studio is a very powerful combo . i was using kontrol F1 with mikro before ..now i am much happier :)
     
  12. kcearl

    kcearl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,710
    Im looking at this as a closed environment with maschine. I bought a dedecated touchsreen laptop (an old one, i5 $100) and other than some synths and selected komplete instruments theres not going to be anything else on it. Stuck an extra battery in it so should get 4-5hrs.

    I think alongside my maschine this will be a great sketchpad, especially with upcoming sequencer improvements. Either that or all my NI stuffs going on ebay.

    Plus Ive fulfilled my dream of owning two copies of the same software...quadrophonic!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Double Deck

    Double Deck NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    216
    Hey Guys,

    I hope I'm wrong about this.. I was really excited about the Jam as I can use it along side traktor in my DJ sets. However I do chop, trim and edit a fair bit of samples when I work in the studio. I was under the impression I could edit start, end points etc. with the touchstrips but doesn't look like you can edit samples from the hardware. I don't own a Jam yet but I tried it in the shop.. If it's really the case it would be a deal breaker for me. Can somebody shed some light on this please? Also is it possible to switch to the mixer windows from the hardware?

    Thanks in advance
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  14. skinswashdc

    skinswashdc Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,349
    Jam is worth the money. If you don't sample it works great by itself. To it complements the komplete kontrol keyboard if you have one. If you sample and you find it hard to get the mpc like workflow stick to the groove box.
     
  15. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,673
    No sample edit whatsoever on Jam. Also no access to GUI navigate for mixer toggle.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Double Deck

    Double Deck NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    216
    But why not allow to control the sampler? It's a 'plug in' after all isn't? So you can control other plug ins and not the sampler??

    That's a scam a for me then... I hope they'll fix this!
     
  17. mkotechno

    mkotechno NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    245
    This, simply this.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. LePhi

    LePhi New Member

    Messages:
    23
    But Jam together with Komplete Kontrol has one huge disadvantage.
    The keyboard is following most actions you perform on the Jam, even it would be a complete showstopper!!
    For example, if you hit a pad on the Jam the MIDI focus of the keyboard switches immediately to the group of the pad.
    Now imagine you play a nice intro bass line on the keyboard and want to throw in a fantastic loop to make the audience throw their hands in the air and then the bass stops playing because this stupid Komplete Kontrol keyboard is now playing the loop sounds after you hit the pad!!
    I don´t know who to blame for this, the Maschine or Komplete Kontrol developers, but they ignore this problem for almost one year now.
    And please don´t tell me it´s gonna be fixed with the Komplete Kontrol MK II.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Supercreative

    Supercreative NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,069
    Indeed, that is a major issue.
    I hope NI is "decoupling" the controllers in the Maschine software that we´re able to play on different "instances" with different controllers.
     
  20. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,427
    Hahaha! What was I thinking .. that was a LONG time ago now!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 1