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Maschine+ Standalone

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by ExactBeats, Sep 7, 2020.

  1. Bodhi Beats

    Bodhi Beats NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    91
    Sort of. You’ve run Maschine on Atom, but you’ve never run this purpose-built version of Maschine, on this OS, on Atom. I haven’t either, so I have no idea how it performs. But it certainly stands to reason that its RAM requirements could be a whole lot lower than running the Windows version of Maschine, on Windows, on Atom.

    I think you’re totally right that this is about expectations. I find it odd that people *expect* Maschine+, running standalone, to do everything that Maschine Mk3 can do in controller mode — because no other device on the market works like that. When you disconnect your MPC, you also get a much smaller selection of instruments and effects. When you disconnect your hardware synth, you can no longer transfer patches to it over USB. All of these devices seem to work this way to me: standalone, it can do some things; connected to a computer, it can do more. I’m not sure why people think this would be any different. And it seems to me that Maschine+ can do more standalone than its direct competitors can.
     
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  2. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    RAM usage is RAM usage, mate. :- ) If one knows the overhead of the OS itself and all the other processes via Task Manager (or more complex utilities), you can then derive what your real resource usage is. Likewise, some DAWs also tell you what your resource usage is per VSTi.

    If I run a Maschine VSTi with for example Monark, FM8 or Massive, I can get a feel for the amount of RAM it'll use on a Maschine+ as it's still Intel architecture on the Maschine+, likewise, if I open an average session file of past projects (even smaller ones), I can see what it'll be like, and 4GB isn't going to be enough for my needs is the takeaway, especially without disk streaming on the Maschine+. The lack of support for full Kontakt instruments in itself says it all.

    I use a lot of physical modelling stuff these days like Modart's Pianoteq, which will even run on a Raspberry Pi, and that helps to avoid using 80GB+ piano sample libraries, it also sounds superior to my ears as you can really dial in the sound that you want as it isn't sample-based. Things like Pianoteq would be great on the Maschine+, there's already NKS support, so it should be possible. With that said, I have a fair few custom Kontakt libraries we've put together over the years that get used on a lot of projects that I would really miss when trying to work standalone on a Maschine+, 4GB isn't going to be enough for those even if full Kontakt support does come to the Maschine+, which is why a MK3 and a laptop or 2-in-1 makes more sense for working portably.

    But like I said: the limitations would be fine for me if it had a battery; one less thing to carry. As it stands, it's standalone rather than truly portable. I'm more portable with a MK3 and a separate laptop or 2-in-1. I'm after portable. :- )
     
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  3. Bodhi Beats

    Bodhi Beats NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    91
    Absolutely, but we don’t know the OS and process overhead, here. Or at least *I* don’t.

    That’s true, if your projects alone require greater than 4GB, then it likely won’t be enough for you. And you’re right that the lack of support for full Kontakt instruments is probably because there isn’t enough RAM for that.

    It’s totally reasonable for you to *want* it to be able to handle your projects, but it sound like it’s probably an unreasonable thing to *expect* in the first version — since (I don’t think) there is any other product on the market that could do what you’re looking for. Here’s hoping they get there eventually.

    Same for me. The lack of battery is the thing that will probably keep me from buying one.
     
  4. Bodhi Beats

    Bodhi Beats NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    91
    Also, I don’t think we KNOW that the implementations of the synths and effects included in Maschine+ are VST at all. They could well have been ported to a custom implementation — in which case, they may have different resource requirements.
     
  5. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    It doesn't matter if we don't know the OS and process overhead on the Maschine+, if you were to assume it's even 0GB (which it of course won't be), my average project file isn't going to fit into 4GB, especially without disk streaming. We know the resource usage of Maschine VSTi and VSTs within it through DAWs and task manager, and as the Maschine+ is Intel too, it's safe to say that RAM usage is going to be pretty identical if you just consider the Maschine VSTi and VST aspect, and even if some NI software is rewritten to be more efficient, the assumption is that these versions of software will already be on Native Access and available to use so that everybody can benefit from improved resource utilization on older pieces of software, that's just logical.

    All depends on how people intend on using these things. As a standalone workflow, I know it's going to be everything that some people need, and more, even with "just" 4GB of RAM. For me, as the computer is a necessary part of what I do, regardless of Maschine+ having 4GB of RAM, I would work around the limitations of spec if it meant truly portable use, in the same way that I'm not doing whole projects on an iZotope Spire or Game Boy, ultimately it's going to end up on a computer, be it for export or further work.

    Prime example of different tools for different tasks: a lot of people are happy to record foley with a plug-in mic on their phone, fair enough if it gets the results you need. Though iZotope Spire gives you phantom power, two headphone outputs, two inputs (hello contact mic and hitting interesting things), and a great battery life, you press a button and you're recording, first time, every time, no waiting, it's just recording. A phone can't compete with that in terms of a portable, solid, reliable workflow, but for a lot of people it's overkill for their needs. Likewise, I can't record impulse responses with the Spire as it stands (would love that though), so sometimes other gear is going to be more appropriate depending on the task at hand.

    I never expected the Maschine+ to do what I wanted or needed in the first version. NI present a product at a professional price point and I give feedback and thoughts about what I would want to see if they want to sell them to me. I want to want one, the improved encoders alone have me wanting to justify it (any improvements are improvements, right?), battery would tip me over the edge, 4GB of RAM aside. But if it's not going to get a battery, that's fine too, it serves a demographic that NI want, but if that is the case, a new Maschine app for phones would be nice, if just to pencil down ideas or record samples to sync with the Maschine library. I'm all about augmenting existing experiences, and the standalone option is a good augmentation.

    I guess my takeaway perspective as feedback is this:
    • If ultimately all of my projects end up on a computer for export or further editing, a standalone Maschine that isn't battery powered seems redundant to me, especially at the given price point if I already own a MK3 and a beefy computer.
    • A battery powered Maschine that can integrate with my existing workflow would be a day one purchase. Even a Maschine Mikro.
    • Standalone doesn't mean its portable. For me, the value of being standalone is in being portable, even at the expense of spec if it provides valuable augmentation to what's already there.
    • Ergo, even porting the iMaschine app to Android would bring value to me as a user, likewise updating the iMaschine app for iOS users would bring value too as a compromise on the Maschine+ not being battery powered. I'd then understand their overall vision for what making the most of their product range is, in the same way that NKS support on third-party VSTs attracts me to them, in the same way adding a KKMK2 and a Jam has really opened up the Maschine workflow. It would be like NI saying "and here's your portable tool to augment these products you have".
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  6. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,975
    Evolution could be considered going for a smaller more mobile size and leave the higher Audio/MIDI IO demands to external devices for those who need it. I dont mean to diminish whatever you personally want but maybe the box is not built with the intention to run high ram eating sampled VIs, maybe it is, idk yet.

    To be honest i prefer not even touch this topic and just step out of it, i'll leave it for you guys, as much as i talk i dont want to get into the CPU/RAM/Big-multisampled-instruments conversation loop that always ends in Arm, Apple, SoC, iOS, ELK, Android, etc...
     
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  7. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    People should use what they need, though I think the customer feedback loop is important. Especially if you feel like you would be a potential customer, but it doesn't hit the mark as-is and you can put why into words, and you want them to have another go and not discontinue it if it doesn't shift as many units as expected or they could have sold you one. That's why the Jam is a pity. Like, for me, standalone is mostly there as an augmentation/added value, but the value as a customer is in the potential portability for me, not the spec, but if it can't run on a battery and it's stationary, I'll evaluate it on different merits versus other stationary products like the MK3 with a computer. So if a Maschine+ MK2 was the same spec and added a battery, that'd be fine for me; plug it into a computer to use the high-end stuff and import ideas made elsewhere.

    Even the improved encoders on Maschine+ leaves me wondering if they'll update the MK3 SKU to include them, but that goes against the more significant iterative improvements between models. Though I'm not saying to do more regular hardware updates, that would be annoying and of course will inevitably lead to trickled improvements to maximize hardware sales that we see elsewhere in tech, but it would be nice to go "right, can I get these encoders as an aftermarket add-on I can install myself or send it in and get it upgraded for a fee?". If they're a big enough difference to mention repeatedly, colour me interested. :- )
     
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  8. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,975
    I could never disagree with that, custumer feedback loop is important, Im pretty vocal about my likes and dislikes too, I just dont want to be a part of it when it comes to discussing M+ specs. My personal priority is for the software I invested in the first place to be better, I bought Maschine exactly because it was not a standalone and has virtually no limitations spec wise and now precious dev time was/will be spent on one, maybe a bunch more in the future... I dont want to rant about it.
     
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  9. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,543
    Yeah that is the concern from many current users I feel, certainly now explains why we have seen close to no real development for things like Komplete Kontrol software in the last 24 months, more compatibility fixes than anything usable. The latest background scanning feature is probably worse performing for most than a benefit.

    I get that companies need to push forward with new flashy widgets and from what it appears, Maschine+ is a perfect catalyst to tie in with the subscription sounds.com side, it seems like a fun little toy (just not useful for me personally) and will probably get new users interested, if all the new Trap producers wanna splash their cash and help NI hire more talent, i'm all for that if it will actually push forward development of the whole range. But what seems to happen is a flood of new users will come in, support demand starts to sore and things buckle under the demands and the "I need this personal specific feature to MAKE ANY PROGRESS!!!!!!!" drowns out the actual useful feature requests and bug reports.

    I'm still rocking the S series Mk1 keyboard as I waited on that until it supported 3rd party VSTs (only supported NI instruments initially) and It does what I wanted it to do well enough for me to work with and be content to use it but I promised I would not update or buy into new models until some key functionality was added (resizable window, VST3 support, ability to save Instrument + FX chains, preview slider on the user page) and I really could have benefited from the MK2s screens for browsing. 4 years later, still waiting on just 1 of these features to even be hinted at.... And now there is a whole new hardware+software device to support so unless they are hiring a dozen new programmers, I wont hold my breath for anything exciting.
     
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  10. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,975
    Yeah... basically.
    I have no complaints about it's performance but as soon as I saw that feature I knew why it was added.

    Trap producers without omnisphere, halftime, timestrech, advanced piano roll, scaler, etc... yeah I dont think so. The users considering this seem to be be in a totally diferent segment, execept the few more mature trapsters who love gear, really tiny audience.
     
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  11. OhulahanBass

    OhulahanBass NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    268
    I really want to see more videos!

    I think I have talked myself out of it already but if I find out you can track vocals and instruments with natural monitoring I may be back in!
     
  12. TJ

    TJ NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,802
    Do you guys think it's a fair assumption that the next Jam, if there is one, will be standalone?

    Anyway on this whole subject my stance is that the software needs to be far more advanced, i think about the hardware sequencers, things liek Polyend Medusa etc etc tha in way they are designed and developed can justify the price point even with probably lower specs than Maschine. I mean if the Reaktor stuff, Blocks etc was baked into the Maschine sequencer can you imagine how sick it would be?

    Could anyone see that happening? And if not, why not? It's essentially what you can do with Live and M4L and there is some phenomenal stuff out there like the isotonik stuff.

    One question i have high on my mind right now is do NI want us to be better music producers or jsut sell us more shiny gear and expansions? I think it's a fair question, they make amazing software, i use it in everything but yet their flagship software sequencer cannot utilise the full capabilities of said software and i'm not sure it ever will.

    I have to run Maschine in Live as it is and that speaks to the limits it has where a 3rd party solution is required. This brings me back to the question of why, and why now in the pandemic and current economic situation. I'll reserve judgement until the update drops anyway but i do wonder about NIs' motives.
     
  13. fulgid

    fulgid New Member

    Messages:
    16
    For people worried about limited I/O options—that's what the two USB ports are for. Personally I think it makes way more sense to spend case space and development time on adding the capability to act as a USB host. That way the device can truly grow with you rather than being limited to what's built into the hardware.

    It seems like that feature will be a bit limited at launch—no class compliant audio, and we don't know yet whether you can use an external audio interface and the built-in inputs simultaneously—but the software can always improve, and even with the limited support it has the potential to elevate this from a groovebox to a true studio hub.
     
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  14. J-Fly

    J-Fly NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    796
    Yes, more videos would be nice and no videos with people stating that they have the beta version.
     
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  15. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    I don't think we'll ever see a Jam MK2. If it was in the works, the Jam likely wouldn't have been removed entirely from the NI website, and NI wouldn't have said to me on their YouTube video for the Maschine+ in the comments that the Jam won't be getting supporting on the Maschine+ because it is no longer part of their "current product portfolio", so I think it's safe to say the Jam is probably dead. It's a pity, because the Jam augments the existing Maschine workflows beautifully, and with a Maschine+, it would make so much sense for added visualization of your project without a computer.

    Throwing this out there though: if there was an improved Jam that actually saw the software features that were promised, received ongoing, regular development, and had a small screen (think Maschine Mikro MK3 for example) then I'd be a day one customer. But if it's just going to wither on the vine like the MK1 then it's best to not bother.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  16. BezowinZ

    BezowinZ NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    225
    For folks with newer synths, cool. But 2 of my 3 synths are 5-pin midi in only.
     
  17. T3beatz

    T3beatz New Member

    Messages:
    3
    I read this and had to reply... what laptop are you running? lol... I'm sure it takes the same amount of time to plug maschine mk3 into a laptop and turn it on...then click the maschine 2.0 software button as it takes to plug the maschine+ into a battery bank and get it setup. who has to carry stands for both the maschine and laptop? If you are on stage using the maschine and a laptop (and you plan on running everything from the maschine) you can close the laptop lid and just sit the maschine on top (and guess what) you don't have to use any plugs because the laptop battery will be running your mk3 (ask me how I know this).

    It seems like an really hard stretch, and people are bringing down the portability of the Mk3 in order to uplift the portability of the maschine+ (which is not necessary).

    My main concern is the software, period... when they release the Maschine+ will they update the software for the MK3 or are they not saying anything because they plan on making it Machine 3.0 and for the MK3 users we have to buy the $99 upgrade instead? If not why not just release it today or tomorrow if you don't plan on charging for it?
     
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  18. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    It's a free upgrade, it's still Maschine 2.x, as told to the community many times by NI. I'm using the beta, it is indeed 2.x.
     
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  19. Bonus Beats

    Bonus Beats NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,463

    I think it should be perfectly ready to roll if you could just plug it into the USB on maschine plus. I really could stand to go back to inserting patterns by flipping between pages on the controller one by one again... not that I'm really interested in the Maschine plus though..

    ps I see Sarah got her demo unit.. good chaps over there at NI lol save some face.
     
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  20. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    Agreed, the Jam makes so much sense with a standalone Maschine+. I'm baffled. I think killing it prior to the launch of the Maschine+ was premature before seeing if people add a Jam to their Maschine+ workflow.
     
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