Maschine vst in Ableton drumrack ... MIDI routing question

this my fav sep up with push2 and maschine so far ... maschineVST in a drumrack, step sequenced from push2

everything seems to run well sequencing or recording on Push ... now i need to work out how record the maschine pads MIDI output into the same drumrack channel/clip - without using MIDImode ... (Maschine pads are just that much nicer for 'live' playing/recording)

i've tried a number of different settings with Maschine's 'MIDI to host' and 'Sound to MIDI notes' options - but just can't seem to record 'to host' MIDI into Ableton no matter what i do

what am i missing here?

so far, i've seen a few workarounds that don't quite fit ... but i'm very much wanting to record into the drumrack's Ableton MIDI track/channel so i can combine step seq and live rec inputs into the clip ... (ie not record on separate MIDI/VST host channels etc)

seems i've nearly got it happening ... but not ... any tips much appreciated

 

*i would have imagined this was one of the most used combinations of controller kit going - maschine VST in an Ableton drum rack

1000+ views and no one can enlighten me about Maschine's 'host' MIDI i/o settings?

all i'm trying to work out now is how to record Maschine's pads into Ableton clips (without needing to switch over to Maschine MIDI mode)

 

Use another group. Make an empty group; put one of the pads in keyboard mode and send it to ableton. Have ableton send the midi back to your group that has sounds.

Maschine just isn't built to do what you're asking. There is no "drumkit" or "manual" output routing. You could put in the effort to manually change each pad. Change the base key, root note, zone settings and channel of every pad. Also disable midi thru. You're still going to have double triggers because maschine has no way to disable local control.

Use another midi controller, or midi mode or another group.

 

these workarounds defeat the whole point of running Maschine in a drumrack - ie having Push's step sequencer alongside Maschine's pads for recording 'live' input from pads ... i'm sure it's doable - just need a clear understanding of Maschine's software MIDI i/o - ie 'to host' settings

somehow i managed to get this happening perfectly in Studio One - i can track straight in from Maschine pads to Studio One tracks/lanes - and i can record Maschine patterns out in realtime into S1 tracks/lanes - then easily comp the Maschine tracks in S1 - the best of both worlds ... i'm determined to get it working in Live11

where can i see a clear explanation of Maschine's MIDI output note anomalies that need to be compensated for? ... what's in the manual doesn't appear to work

 

Sure. There are 2 issues you're going to deal with.

I'm under the assumption that you have a maschine group that consists of several instances of sampler modules. I don't really understand what you're doing with push; but I believe the end goal is to use ableton as a sequencer while playing the pads on maschine.

Issue 1: Maschine has no concept of disabling local control. You put some sort of sound generator (i.e. sampler) on the pad. Press the pad and the base key midi note is sent to the generator. You have the option to send it to another location as well (i.e. to your host); but you don't have the option NOT to send it to the sound generator. So if you send it to ableton and ableton sends it back; you'll always double trigger (disable midi thru so you don't create a feedback loop). Maybe a minor issue but it would drive me insane.

Issue 2: Again, I'm assuming you have a group with a bunch of instances of sampler. You're in group mode. The root key is going to default to C3. All of them. Hit the pad and you send C3 to the sound generator AND out to ableton. Group input has drumkit and manual mode. If you send C#3 to the group; the drumkit routing mode sends it to pad to and converts it to the base key. There is no option to transform the output.

So you're either going to need ableton to be able to figure out the difference between all of the C3 notes you're sending or you're going to need to find a way not to send a bunch of C3 notes. Your pads can send on different midi channels. Maybe you can find a way to convert C3 on Channel 2 to C#3.

I wrote out another really long and laborious alternative, but it got me thinking about yet another option (maschine is kinda flexible). You can use the midi transpose knob on the output. My test was having the sample only on C3 (not stretched over the keyboard), but having the base key on c2. Hitting the pad plays nothing. Midi out transposed up an octave and sent to an external sequencer and back. Sample plays; no double triggering. Neat.

So you could route the output but transpose pads 2-16 up to the proper note. You still have double triggering when playing, but it's a lot quicker than making all of those other changes. In fact; I'm probably going to use this. The phasing from the double triggering is annoying, but whatever.

Anyway; those are the the issues you're dealing with. We have a groovebox that's missing a fundamental function of "local off" and we're dealing with the fundamental difference between having a sampler with a bunch of one shots mapped across the keyboard vs 16 samplers all playing C3.

 

thanks for the feedback ... def the areas that i need to look at ... and some food for thought MIDI signal paths and destinations

... yes, Maschine group with several instances of drumsynth and sampler ... am using Push2 to run Live and sequence MaschineVST within a drumrack - this works very nicely with MaschineMk3 alongside ... i can trigger 16 Maschine sounds from either Push2 or Maschine 4x4 grid, but only Push2 grid results in MIDI notes recorded .. I also use Push to control most of what i do within Ableton - only use a mouse and keyboard in Ableton if there's no Push control option for an operation

... of course it needs local off - and yes that's what i thought this 'thru' switch was for

... i figure there's two points of possible to control note output transpose - firstly this transpose which you mention ... which is how i dealt with it in Studio One


or possibly here on the Maschine drumrack in Ableton?


am going to go plough through a few Moneypizzle vids and look around for more clues ... i'm sure i've seen this solved somewhere ... and knowing i got it happening in Studio One

meanwhile thanks for the info on limitations and issues at play here ... appreciated

 

It just doesn't pass incoming midi back out.

For example:

You have pad 1 playing massive. You also have pad 1 sending midi out to a hardware module. You have a keyboard going to midi in. Press a pad and you'll play both massive and whatever hardware you have connected. Press a key on a midi keyboard and you'll only play the synth because it doesn't pass the midi thru to the hardware. Record a few bars. You're not going to hear the hardware while recording; but you will hear it on playback. You'll always hear massive. Silly example but shows the behavior.

Probably useful if you're chaining midi devices; but I've never needed to do that. I struggle to think of a logical use case.

There is a little speaker icon under the group name. It stops the pad from triggering when you click on it. That means you can switch to a different pad without triggering it. If only that had the same effect on the pads.

I love/hate maschine.