Master/Slave?

Yeah, clearly I overestimated NI support's ability to do a simple task That said, I did exactly what you ask and I posted the transcript of that conversation here. So far, I've still received not even so much as an acknowledgement that I ASKED for a refund from support. I hope NI seriously doesn't think that they're just going to blow me off and hope I go away, because it's NOT going to happen...

 

WOW, this is a stunning thread. This really needs to be fixed and bring back the slave function.

 

I've been reading through this whole topic but I'm not sure if my issue with the sync function is similar or not. Looks a bit the same so I decided to post it here.
The thing is though, it was working more then perfect for me before I updated Traktor Sratch Pro to 1.1.1.

I used the sync function differently to fit to my needs:

Before I upgraded to this timecode system I was just a home-DJ spinning vinyls in my room. Never even heard of the term BPM, the only thing I knew was how to beatmix.
I matched the beats of my records just by listening, adjusting the pitch and pushing or slowing down the record with my hands.

I'm hooked up now since a few months with TSPro, started figuring things out etc. Matching the BPM numbers with the pitch and profiting of how this made beatmixing so much easier and faster. Discovering the Sync function made me go totally "Loco".
I had trouble though when syncing tracks, there were blips,blops, crackles etc etc. and I wasn't the only one after doing a quick search on the forums. (Keeping the Sync light on)

My solution to this was by binding the Sync function to a button on my MIDI Controller on Hold (not Trigger) (-> Sync light doesn't stay on, only while pressing the button).
So if I slammed that button for track B, Traktor would immediatly set the tempo identical to track A and line up B's beatgrid with Track A. Just like beatmixing.
This doesn't solve the problem though that by setting the tempo and beats equal the tracks may still slowly get out of matched beats while playing.

No problem though, if I started hearing a slight difference I just had to slam the button again and both tracks were perfectly matched together again, not even a single blip blop or crack from the little grid movement that was made by traktor when I hit the button again.
I could endlessly keep my tracks playing in a perfect beatmix, not even a slight noticeable difference. Just a matter of pressing the button on the MIDI controller now and then.

Down to the point, now that I updated to 1.1.1 it's just a disaster.
Sync wasn't even working, or going completely crazy (I press Sync on Deck A and all of sudden deck A declares itself the Master Deck ) until (thanks to this topic) I activated the manual Master set and locked my beatgrids.
I can live with having to set the Master manually each time.

Though the issue still ain't solved, I can no longer beatmix tracks by using Sync.
Let's say I want to beatmix Track B onto A (Playing at 132.40 BPM) by using the Sync.
I let my first beat go on the right moment and press the MIDI Button to let traktor match the tempo and beats.
They're somewhat matched, the Tempo of Track B is nowhere near 132.40.
I press the button again, it's better now, not matched though, B is now on 132.76 and I can hear that the beats aren't matched.
I press the button once again, track B jumps to 132.40 (Aha! the right tempo ) and yes, the beats are perfectly matched. Though about 5 seconds later the beats are starting to grow away from each other, which is normal, so I press the button again.
Track B instead jumps to 132.25 BPM, making the beat-gap grow even bigger and faster, slam the button again and again and again. Nop, the mix is just screwed, the beats aren't getting fixed.
I notice the BPM of Track B jumping up and down around 132.40 but always with a difference of 0.20 - 0.30 BPM.
I tested it enough on different tracks with very clear beats and correct beatgrids. Tracks that I could mix in the previous version with the above method flawlessly.

What makes me unable to just use the simple method I was using before I updated? Why was Sync redesigned/configured/changed?

Even just clicking on Sync with it being lit-up until I deactive it doesn't work. Hey, I can't even press on Sync, sometimes I can for the exact same tracks. If this is due to beatgrids not being properly then I understand that we should start tapping etc manually, but to be honest, I'd prefer to just beatmix the slow-way again by listening or just downgrading and being able to use it like I was using it and be uber-creative with mixing songs, accapella's, effects, loops etc in a matter of seconds.

Again, what was changed to the Sync system and why?

End of huge post :/

 

too bad i've seen this that late....

indeed, in T(S)P does not have the ability to keep tracks synced and phase shifted at the same time.

this has been raised on the betalist as well and i absolute agree that this should be possible.

 

OMG, is it actually possible that I AGREE with Native Girl on something? I better check the temperature because hell might actually freeze over...

Seriously though, I can't actually believe that there isn't more of an outcry over this. It doesn't seem to me like you need to be a very advanced DJ for this to affect you on a pretty regular basis.

 

yes, it's eastern and xmas on the same day

 

Potential Solution for keeping Phase Shifted Tracks in Sync

*

I have a potential solution for NI to consider for: keeping tracks in sync while phase shifting (1 or more) decks (see below).

It's understandable that NI has/had enough on their plate to get all other aspects of sync worked out before taking on the "slave" functionality.

Yes, NI could have considered this (slave functionality) from the very beginning, but NI is very driven by "design" and it seems that "function follows design" at NI.

So, since so much work has already been done on the (current) TP "Sync" options/functionality and algorithms (that can not be undone at this point) here's my thinking:

Vangelis (Native Instruments Support Team) talks about moving the beat grids "in real time" (live) during a performance to get a deck/track that we want out of "phase" (such as cool sounding offbeat percussion). While that may be a "workaround" it destroys the beat grid work for the track for regular "on sync" playing. (So it's not really a good solution) -- but ...

What this (also) seems to mean is:

If NI can figure out a way to REMEMBER/SAVE the original Beat Grids on a track and when the user moves the Pitch Bends (Phase Offsets) the Traktor algorithm makes TEMPORARY beat grid adjustments (offsets) -- i.e. shows a different color beat grid line (let's call this the OFFSET BEAT GRID LINES) that is the DIFFERENCE between what the ORIGINAL BEAT GRID LINES and the (requested) Phase Offset that we want.

Traktor will then use the OFFSET BEAT GRID LINES to maintain sync (even keeping the phase meter showing that the track is "out of Phase Sync" but by changing the color of the phase meter offsets to let the DJ know that the OFFSET BEAT GRID LINES are now (the ones) in use and being tempo synced).

When the track is unloaded or Phase Sync reset - it all goes back to the ORIGINAL (saved) BEAT GRID lines.

Is basically an implementation of "relative" (OFFSET BEAT GRID LINES) versus "absolute" (ORIGINAL BEAT GRID LINES).

TP just needs to allow (in certain sync modes - maybe something called a SLAVE mode) to allow tracks with DJ phase offsets to follow (and keep in sync) the OFFSET BEAT GRIDS without wiping out or changing the track's ORIGINAL (saved) BEAT GRIDS.

Hopefully I wasn't too confusing on this.

My point is that NI can keep all the current sync algorithms/mathematics and "add on" to this logic the ability to do "offset beatgrids" (non-destructively - without losing the orig beatgrids).

Hope this info helps the conversation and NI's thinking on what to do.

iwaiwa

 

Well, I don't know how "understandable" it is. It seems more like NI just didn't think about the ramifications of eliminating this feature in the upgrade to TPro. Nevertheless, I think I understand your suggestion, but my question is this: how is what you suggest different than 3.4?

For example, the shifted beat grid (as you suggest) is basically what is shown in the phase meter. The original grid is still there, and the phase meter shows the offset from the actual grid. I'm not against your suggestion, it just seems like this actually worked pretty well the way it was...

The only practical issue I see with the whole slave issue is how the hot cues/quantization would work. For example, let's say you have the track slightly out of phase and you jump to a cue. Should the track jump to the cue taking into account the amount out of phase, or should the track jump to the cue using the "real" grid. It seems that the earlier scenario would be more correct, but that might give unexpected results, especially if a given phase adjustment were made to accommodate for beat drift in the track (which might not be present near the cue point). However, in that scenario, it seems like a quick press of the sync button could take care of getting the grids lined up if needed...

The long and short is that I don't think this issue is terribly complicated. NI could probably just give an OPTION to have the Sync lock ignore any phase shifts made by the user. That's essentially what Slave does in 3.4. The thing is, it's just not that hard. NI doesn't need to re-think the wheel. It worked in 3.4. As I've said about 100 times, the current system ONLY MAKES THINGS LESS FLEXIBLE. The advantages of the TPro system are minimal and the downsides are extensive. Does it make it easier for a beginner not to have to engage the slave mode AND press the sync button (or to press the sync button a few times over the course of the track)? Sure. On the other hand, does that make it impossible for more advanced users to do more advanced techniques. Definitely. In a software called TRAKTOR PRO, which user's needs should be considered FIRST?

 

Good points G Mint. I don't disagree with anything you said.

I think you'll agree, that history shows: once the NI Traktor designers and product manager(s) make a particular decision: it's nearly impossible to get them to bring back any orig features and functionality.

Case in point: I personally cannot use the TP Delay and Verb effects. They were perfect and "ready to go" for me in T3.2, "all I had to do was hit a button once" and those FX sounded great. Ever since (the FX changes in 3.3, 3.4 and TP) I have to "tinker, tinker and fiddle" with the knobs to get anything that sounded as "near as good" as those effects in 3.2

I think NI was under pressure to make Traktor 3 FX function the same as their goals for the later version of (non-TP) Traktor Scratch (the more expensive to of the 2 products).

Whatever it takes to get the NI TP Product Manager(s) to seriously (and finally) address the "slave" functionality (and benefits) for advanced users - is fine with me.

No way do they still have/use the older Traktor algorithms in TP -- it's all new / re-designed.

I think you'll agree that we don't really care how they solve this puzzle, as long as the end result is that there is again a slave mode that "behaves" and gives us back the orig slave functionality/options.

-- Just want to keep the conversation going.

Hopefully, at some point, NI will chime in and let us know what the latest thinking is on this.

If NI sees that only 1 or 2 people are complaining it's going to be a very low priority for them.

iwaiwa

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I basically had to sacrifice hours and hours of my time and ultimately my spot on the beta test just to get NI to fix a longstanding problem with shifting beatgrids on AAC tracks. Eventually, it got done, but I certainly earned that fix...

Most definitely. NI support is currently (supposedly) arranging for me to return TPro Scratch for a refund. Unfortunately, that's not really what I want. What I really want this very basic functionality fixed. That said, I'm not going to let NI have my $400 or so until they do so. I hate that I have to go through all of this BS, but I've known for a long time that this is how NI works...

 

Hi Native_Girl,

Thanks for you input here.

This should be such a simple fix and you summarised it so well:

Have a good one,

Ritchie.

 

Simple or not, it doesn't look like it's going to be happening anytime soon since the 1.1.2 update notes are online and without any indication of a fix for this issue.

Fortunately, I just got an RMA for my TSP upgrade so I'm out until this gets addressed, if ever. And on that note, all I can say is if 3.4 doesn't work on Snow Leopard (I'm pretty much expecting that) this is probably going to be THE issue that forces me to another program...

 

Could peeps please stop even remotely entertaining the idea of moving beat grids. My heads just spins thinking about how wrong in so many ways this solution is.

This topic is about bringing back correct deck slave functionality to TPro.

Stay cool GMint - we'll get there, I promise.

 

AMEN.

I wish I agreed with you, but this time around, I'm not so sure. Obviously, I've been here for a long time (since the very first Mac version of Traktor, in fact). I've seen NI break a LOT of things in upgrades, but this is probably the first time that I've seen as huge an oversight as this. I mean this literally takes a professional software and turns it into a child's toy. Worse yet, there doesn't seem to be a very high priority on fixing this...

I know you may think that I'm exaggerating here, but I am very serious when I say that this is the first time that NI has so completely broken my workflow with an upgrade that I'm actually compelled to put my money where my mouth is. Since the beginning, I've never had to do this but I'm off to box up my TSP upgrade. I've got my RMA and it's going back.

I never thought I would be THAT GUY—the one in the forum saying that I'm sticking with the previous version of Traktor for whatever reason, but here I am, doing exactly that. Nice job NI. I just hope that I'm not the only one who is demanding their money back. Maybe if we all did it, then NI would think twice about releasing such junk...

Footnote: just FYI, history doesn't necessarily support your hope that we'll eventually get there. Issues do get worked out, to be sure, but take NMX recording. It worked at one point, NI broke it, tried to fix it over and over and OVER again and then eventually just totally eliminated it in TPro. It's not that I think that was necessarily the wrong decision (I rarely used NMX anyway) but it sure sucks for the guys who DID use it and who relied on NI telling them over and over again that it would be addressed. Now, they're even worse off—with NI saying that they'll bring it back someday.

 

1.1.2 is only a hotfix which will include minor, not critical bug fixes. i believe that screwing with the sync function would be and is therefore not included in the 1.1.2 update.

but i'll keep the issue up in the betalist.
the more people report this to the support, the merrier

 

I understand that it's only supposed to be a minor fix, but I don't think that changes my assertion that it's probably going to be quite some time before this is addressed, even if it's the first thing that's done in 1.2. I mean, let's say another what 4-6 weeks of beta testing 1.1.2. Then, there's a period where nothing publicly visible happens after a release and that's usually at least a month. Then let's say another couple of months for development and testing of 1.2 and we're most likely talking mid-to-late summer.

Plus, if you add on the fact that whatever fix comes around for this problem won't work correctly in the first version (just like the newly added Master mode) then you're talking another month or two (at best) before NI acknowledges that there's a problem and finally gets around to fixing that.

I don't know about you, but I've got a ton of gigs to do in that span of time. I do hope you keep this issue alive, but I'm not holding out much hope, especially since Phil seemed to indicate that this was a point of contention prior to the release of TPro 1.0...

 

Native Girl is saying that this probably WON'T be in 1.1.2 because it is NOT a minor, but rather a critical fix.

That means a long long time.

 

I got the essence of what she was saying, which no matter how you look at it is, like you said, it's going to be a long time.

 

Hi Native_Girl,

Would you mind giving us an update as to what is happening on the Beta Test re the Master/Slave issue.

Thanks,

Ritchie.

 

Ritchie I don't think we are able to say much as we are not permitted to do so, save to say buggles analysis on 1.1.2 is correct.

Phil