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Mp3Gain or not Mp3Gain my collection? Confused....

Discussion in 'General DJ Forum' started by GudS, Oct 31, 2004.

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  1. GudS

    GudS New Member

    Messages:
    136
    Hello everyone, ive read everything i could found on the forum about MP3Gain and couldnt decided what to do!!!!


    Anyone could help me out ?


    I got around 6000 titles .mp3 ! And I dont think Autogain from traktor alone is doing a good job :(

    I got 2.5.3 Traktor, and i just got MP3gain 1.2.3 And I see that after analizing many of my Mp3's most of them all have
    "CLICKING, and CLIP(TRACK) with a Y "yes" !

    I guess this isnt good for sure, so i set Target "Normal" Volume to 93.5 and almost 100% of the Clipping and CLip(track) Disappear ! So , should i Gain the ones that Clipping and Clip(track) Y disappeared ? And the rest that didnt should i try a Lower Volume level ? Or even iff i see some files Clipping or Clip(track) i Should set ALL my files to have the same Normal Volume "93,5" even with "Y' ?

    Or should i set separated configs LEVELS so no Mp3 file has Clipping or Clip(Track) ?


    And another thing, after GAINNING my files with Mp3Gain, should i use AUTOGAIN from Tracktor ? After Gainning and using AutoGain the autogain still works!


    Kinda Confused here!


    THanks for the support!
     
  2. Acolyte57

    Acolyte57 Forum Member

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    I'm confused. MP3Gain has the ability to make a clipping track stop clipping? If a track clips, the amplitude of the wave is too big to be sampled. The waveforms are cut-off because they can't make the full sinus waves. Lowering the gain doesn't give you back that information, it simply stops it from reaching the maximum value of the sampled amplitude. This would probably make the program tell you it doesn't clip, but if it clipped before gaining, it's still clipping, isn't it?
     
  3. GudS

    GudS New Member

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    136
    Acolyte57, also a really good question!

    Iam going to test this a Cliping mp3 file i got to see if it stops or not !


    :)
     
  4. GudS

    GudS New Member

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    136
    Well Gainning a CLIPPING mp3 with MP3gain get the CLIP even worst from my test !


    Tho, Hobbes once said that he could take CLIP bug's from mp3 files using SOund Forge, just didnt explained how....

    HOBBES ?!?!?! HOW !??!?! :)


    peace
     
  5. Acolyte57

    Acolyte57 Forum Member

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    320
    On a different note, do you have autogain in Traktor set to perceived instead of peak? Peak is really not a functional setting; most files from a decent source have a peak gain of 0db. The perceived gain is what makes all the difference...
     
  6. GudS

    GudS New Member

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    136
    Yes i Use perceived out gain, still sometime i have to mess around the GAIN myself and this takes few secounds that i could be doing something else! Correct ?



    Just not sure i should Mp3gain all my collection or not, if its worth it... Very confused still :wallbash:
     
  7. djHSL

    djHSL Forum Member

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    559
    A few comments:

    1. If you use MP3GAIN you will have to re-analyse your files before the autogain function will work correctly.

    2. After MP3GAIN you will have to re-analyse your tracks. It *should* preserve your cue points, but make sure you take a back-up first and test on a small sample.

    3. If you use the Sound Forge approach, you will lose quality by decoding then re-encoding an already lossy file.

    4. Perhaps the most important lesson is that you shouldn't be copying so many MP3s from so many crap sources. Work from original CD with a quality encoder like EAC, normalising to (say) -1db, and you won't have this problem.
     
  8. Vince_Tf

    Vince_Tf Forum Member

    Messages:
    1,026
    I've been using mp3gain on all newly added tracks, but it's not too important IMO.

    All it does is get the level on the full track display in Traktor looking reasonable, not too low. And the tracks now mostly play at a uniform levels when using other music players like Windows Media Player. But the unform level is not a big deal to me snce I don't play a lot of tracks outsde of Traktor, just DJ mixes and quick checks of new tracks.

    I think mp3gain uses the same methods as Traktor for Perceived and Peak volumes so no advantage there.

    I have mp3gain set for 94 db. Also it is set to not to allow clipping, so a few of the tracks get reset to a lower level such as 87 db. I still use Traktor on auto gain for perceived volume.
     
  9. GudS

    GudS New Member

    Messages:
    136
    djHSL,

    I understand what your saying, my point is that i just wanted my Collection to have a similar volume among each track, not to have a big change on volume while mixing two tracks!


    My concern is about What config should I use on Mp3gain, since i dont want to use 93.5 db on all my collection if i have tracks that are way over 93.5 with no CLIPPING !


    But if i dont use the same volume for all Mp3's theres no point for me to use Mp3gain , correct ? or am I wrong ?



    Perhaps i should just forget Mp3gain and stay with Perceived Auto Gain ? JESUS :hammer:
     
  10. djHSL

    djHSL Forum Member

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    559
    No matter what you do, depending on your music library, you may still have mismatches of volume between tracks.

    MP3GAIN and Traktor will analyse based on RMS sound values across an entire track. Any track which has a very loud or very quiet section will distort this average, The worst case is a track which starts off quiet, then builds to a very loud ending, or vice-versa. You will mismatch volume at each end of the track.

    My approach to managing levels is to use auto-gain when the track loads, then listen to the cued up track and make any necessary adjustments to gain and equalisation before fading it into the mix.

    By the way ... you always seem so frustrated and angry ... have you considered tranquillisers, or at least herbal tea? *grin*
     
  11. GudS

    GudS New Member

    Messages:
    136
    LoL your funny :)

    I only post here when i spent very long time trying to figure out myself, by then iam frustated enough :)


    Your lucky guy, you only spin Wav's !

    Since this is not a profession yet I cannot spend loads of cash on Original CD's

    So i need to use Mp3's and most mp3 sucks you know thats why you play wavs !


    I just didnt found any friends where i live to give me Wav cd's to get started! Also confused since Wav you cannot Write Id Tag's , that might be a Issue, to setup configs of each track every time i Load the CD, since iam not sure i could handle 5000 Titles in .Wav format, you have all your wav's in your HD ? or CD's? Ever freezed Traktor on a GIG while changing the CD ? hehehehe

    I spin psy fullon trance and psy progressive, what you Spin ?


    Peace :djsi:
     
  12. djHSL

    djHSL Forum Member

    Messages:
    559
    Unless you handle a lot of requests, I really have no idea what you might do with so many files.

    I play 5-6 hour sets. One night is Urban, the other is what might be described as tribal/latin house ... commercial dance remixes by guys like Victor Calderone, Ralphi Rosario, Chris Cox, Hex Hector, etc.

    My average track length is between 3 and 4 minutes. Therefore, I'm going to play no more than 120 tracks in a night. The average track is around 40Mb, and I have just under 600 tracks in my play-out collection - split roughly between Urban and Dance - which takes less than 25Gb.

    That means that I have at least twice as much music as I'm ever going to play in one night, which gives me PLENTY of scope for variation. And perhaps it is old age, but even with that number of tracks I have difficulty remembering all the details. How many tracks does a club DJ using vinyl or CD have on-hand at any one time? In my experience, a LOT less than that.

    I never load from a CD during a set.

    I update my collection weekly - adding 6-12 tracks a week, and deleting a few that I'll no longer play. I still have my CDs catalogued and filed, so it isn't a big issue to bring back a track if I want to include it in next week's set.

    For WAV files, cue points, beat markers and load markers are managed by Traktor within the collection file. When I load and analyse a new track, I fill in the track details using the collection editor. It takes less than five minutes per track, or about one hour per week to maintain an accurate collection.

    Finally, I think we have discussed this before, but I'm not sure what you mean by "wav cd". You need normal, audio CDs from which you copy tracks using a program like "Exact Audio Copy". If you can rip a track to MP3, you can rip it to WAV instead.
     
  13. Spyrochaete

    Spyrochaete Forum Member

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    202
    I MP3Gain'd my whole collection and it's worked quite well for me. It made all my songs a little too quiet, but I can't be bothered to adjust them all again. Now that my tracks are all (mostly) gain matched, I just crank up the gain manually. I can't trust Traktor's gain detection on any setting so this is preferable. I skip the track to many positions and adjust the gain so that the peak is close to the top.

    MP3Gain will tell you if a track is clipping, but it will not "fix" it. It will just reduce the gain so that the maxed sound level is at 90% volume instead of 100%. It will still sound crappy.
     
  14. pulsewidth_Tf

    pulsewidth_Tf Forum Member

    Messages:
    240
    I agree with Spyrochaete. I've autogained my entire collection, and then re-analyzed it in Traktor.

    I wasn't scientific about it, but my general strategy was to apply the maximum no-clip gain to any single tracks, up to 95dB. I believe you have to enable "maximizing features" under Advanced Options to get this feature. I found that 95dB produced an optimal stripe in Traktor.

    My newest recordings that are all super-compressed and incredibly loud (as is the production fad at the moment) do get dropped down to 95dB. Whereas really old recordings with lots of dynamic range get no boost at all, since for these recordings even a small increase would cause clipping.
     
  15. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    I'm curious about the alleged decode/re-encode deterioration djHSL mentioned using SoundForge. I've routinely used Sound Forge's clipped-peak restoration plugin to fix tracks that are clipping (and if you think badly recorded P2P downloads are the only tracks that clip, try loading some Chemical Bros from CD onto a wave form editor), and I haven't had any problems that I've perceived.

    Sound Forge is a pretty pro-level app, and I'd be surprised if there's lossy re-encoding. Can you tell me more about this?
     
  16. GudS

    GudS New Member

    Messages:
    136
    Boysteve, I got Sound Forge and iam trying to use its plug-in's to fixe a few tracks with CLICKS on it and Clippings with no success :(

    Could you kinda guide me ?


    THanks :)
     
  17. djHSL

    djHSL Forum Member

    Messages:
    559
    It isn't Sound Forge that causes the loss of data, but the MP3 algorithm. If you use Sound Forge with WAV files (or any other lossless format) you don't lose anything.

    MP3 is a lossy compression algorithm. This means that information is discarded during compression. The more times you encode/decode, the more information is lost.

    Not convinced? Here is a quick demonstration using Sound Forge, but you'll get a similar result with any other product.

    1. Take a WAV file and compress to MP3 at any bit rate.

    2. Open the file again.

    3. Use the SAVE-AS option, and compress the file to MP3 at the same bit rate as before.

    4. Look at the file sizes - they are different.

    5. Open the three files side-by-side, and compare the wave forms - note how each has lost definition, especially if you encoded to 192k or lower.
     
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