My IDEAL Maschine>Ableton workflow! Thoughts?

Ok, hear me out - cause I think that this would be a great workflow, and I can't see why such functionality couldn't be built into Maschine.

(Unless it already exists, and I've somehow missed it - please do tell!)

I've looked at, and experimented with the drag and drop midi, and also with Maschine as a plug-in with Ableton, and to be honest, I just don't really like either of these ways for working.

My IDEAL Maschine > Ableton workflow would be to build patterns in Maschine, then simply drag and drop the Midi into tracks in Ableton AND... have Ableton automatically create a drum rack that is populated with the corresponding drum sounds and samples!



I would thes go on to arrange, effect and modify these clips as I would normally in Ableton.

Is there any way this can be done? (Other than manually creating a a drum rack, and manually re-selecting the samples/drum hits via Ableton to match the samples in my Maschine pattern.)

 

"sounds to midi notes" ?

 

Yeah, I have already tried this - it transfers the midi data and notes - but not the actual links to the samples that each note is triggering, nor does this set up a drum rack.

Can what I envisage be done?
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The other thing about 'Sounds to Midi Notes' is it doesn't seem to actually import the midi notes for all of my sounds - just some of them.

I'm perplexed as to why this is.
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Also, I tried dragging in 'Sound to Midi Notes' and manually setting up a drum rack, then browsing for each individual drum sample through Ableton's browser, in order to manually recreate the kit to mirror what I had built in Maschine.

Even when this was done, some drum sounds sounded markedly different in Ableton - things like vastly shortened decays etc.

And no, there were not any effects applied to these drum sounds in Maschine.

Really puzzled, and a little disappointed in the Maschine Ableton integration.

 

Why do you need the drum rack?

I have my drums come through on midi channel 2, and have set the machine group output on audio 2 so midi data in ableton triggers the drum hits in maschine, and the audio comes into an ableton track.

So basically my workflow is... create kit in maschine, create pattern in either maschine or ableton, get the midi into ableton... steal underpants... profit.

The audio is always going through ableton (as per Best of both Worlds thread), so I can apply effects to it.

Also, eventually the midi also comes from Ableton, so I can put midi effects in.

 

Ok, I can get Saint Joe's example to work - but once the midi is in Ableton - there is no way of knowing which midi note it what - ie. they are all just labelled on the piano roll with the corresponding note (c3, D3 etc)

Also, once in Ableton - how can I apply, say, a reverb to a snare which has been imported this way? I can't unfold my drum track, as I would with a drum rack normally, which would allow me to do this.
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I tried to follow the longer, more in-depth example in the Best of Both Worlds thread, but I just can't get it to work, I think I'm routing something the wrong way.

In the example:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8419/liveset.jpg

...I can select '9-Maschine' in the first drop-down menu under 'MIDI From' in each track, as is shown, but I can't select 'Maschine' in the second drop down menu - it just isn't an option.

And, on the track 'Group 1' (far left) I can't select '1-Maschine' in the second drop down menu under 'MIDI To'

 

Ok, so I spent about 30 mins working through the second, more detailed method, and I finally got it to work.

But damn, even once you have the template set-up in Ableton - that is a HELL of a lot of screwing about with routing stuff, just to get it to work.

Is this really the best way to work with Ableton and Maschine?


A few questions:

• If I save the clips that I make in Ableton this way, will it retain the links to the Maschine plug-in, if I go to use those clips in another project?

• How do I add reverb, compression, EQ etc to the various drum sounds imported this way?

• It still annoys the heck out of my that I cant see what the drum sounds actually are on the piano roll in Ableton? Is there anyway of fixing this that is faster than manually working out what each note equals and typing it in?

I sometimes like to move the midi notes around on the piano roll, so it really helps to actually know just what it is that I am moving around.

Thanks in advance!

 

I don't really know what to say. Yeah it's a bit of a pain to setup but after you do... I haven't had a problem. Also, now you never have to do it again.

Also, with the VST support in Maschine, why not take advantage of it to do your reverbs, or send the various drums to their own audio track?

Tbh, it sounds like you want to use Ableton and not Maschine.

I did come across this issue the other day when I wanted to use my Maschine drums with some presets I had for a drum rack. I gave up and continued to make music instead of bang my head against a wall

 

I guess, but you would still have to set up the sends in Maschine each time you use a new set of groups - not that that takes too long, I guess.

I'm not quite sure I follow you here - do you mean to send the various drum sounds to audio tracks in Ableton?

Yeah, dude - I definately hear what you are saying - I just wanted to see if there was a better way that maybe I didn't know about.

Thing is - I LOVE working in Maschine. As a sketch pad to initiate a groove, sketch out some patterns etc, it is the best for me. I get **** made, fast - partially because of its simplicity.

HOWEVER, as others have noted, I just can't get down with the arrangment tool. Subsequently, everything I have made in Maschine hasn't progressed beyond a few bars, and variations of loops.

I really feel the need to be able to visualise my arrangment, as I can in Ableton.

 

Yeah if you want your snares effected, choose the pad, and select a different "out" for that sample/sound.

I think by default they are all set to "group" so it uses the group out. But there is no reason you can't send snares to out 10.

Or... apply vst and/or internal effects within Maschine for the reverbs.

In Ableton I often separate important or distinct drums into their own track (to visualise in the arrangement or to trigger clips for them).

I agree +1

Sorry I can't be of help unfortunately I'm not as maschine/ableton savvy as I'd like to be.

 

Despite I agree that the setup is a pain you can make a template in ableton to speed up things.
For me the most frustrating thing is to not being able to control the DAW with maschine's transport bar when being in plugin mode .

 

Yeah, that is a little annoying, isn't it.

I would forgive it if the integration I describe was made possible, though.

Perhaps I should post in the Feature Request section - although it is as much an Ableton feature, than a Maschine one.

 

Yeah, I always hit the play button.. coz the Maschine sits on my lap. PITA reaching for the apc or keybd.

 

Without some kind of Maschine kit to Live Drum rack file converter, you won't be able to do all of what you want as quickly and easily as you seem to think it should be done.
How would Live know which samples you used in Maschine? The MIDI notes don't provide such information. If you really want to do this, perhaps you should either just sue Maschine as your drum rack as already suggested, or limit the kits you use and set them up identically as both Maschine kits and Live drum racks. Then when you use Maschine kit A in a track, you can load Live drum rack A in Live and the transition of MIDI export/import will be all that is necessary. Just not sure how you expected Live to just know which samples you'd used in your kit...

Personally, though, I wouldn't do this at all and if the only thing from Live is the song sequencing arrangement function, I would do everything in Maschine and the export audio clips/loops into Live and arrange those. If you later find you want a variation somewhere, go back to Maschine and create that variation. This way will stop you messing so much too and actually get tracks done, which I know can be a problem for a lot of people (me included) when the tracks are still "open" and you can tweak more.

Have a play and a think about exactly what you're missing in Maschine. Is it just the song sequencing?

 

draggin' midi into live and using its groove template is very cool also

 

I've tried this, and it is pretty laborious - but yes, it is a manual solution to what I'm trying to achieve.

One negative is that I found that if certain drum hits from the Maschine default library are in your kit that you wish to replicate in a Drum Rack in Ableton, they may actually sound different in Ableton.

Clearly, some of these had effects modules applied already in Maschine, hence importing the raw sample into a drum rack doesn't carry that through. I also found the same thing happened with some drum sounds that didn't have effects modules on them in Maschine. I guess that they had some different parameters in the 'Sampler' module?

I get what you are saying - midi is just data - with no reference to specific sounds. However, I do feel that if you have those same drum sounds imported into your Ableton library, surely a bit of code could be written to recognise the samples associated with each midi note?

I'm not a programmer, but essentially the data being transferred from Maschine would be:

A: the midi notes and velocity

and

B: a file referencing the location of those 16 sounds on your hard drive.

Thats all. Hardly rocket science, but a very streamlined workflow would result. Of course, Ableton would have to write a bit of code to automatically generate the drum rack on import, but I'm sure this isn't impossible, either.

If you consider all of the amazing sonic manipulation that such software is already capable of, this only seems like a couple of extra steps by comparison.

Yeah, I think for the time being, this may be the process I will use. You make a valid point re. limiting your options leading to greater productivity. As you say, I can just go back into Maschine if I want another variation of my pattern - but this does mean I can't access some of the Abelton functionality that I list below.

But, when the functionality I describe is released as a 'major feature update' in the near future, grown men will weep openly in the street with joy - and wonder how they got by without it before! :lol:

Mostly, but also:

• being able to view visual representations of automation on multiple tracks, simultaneously, side-by-side

• being able to jam with my clips, and record that improvised jam into an arrangement

• the Apply Groove functionality of Ableton ('Swing' in Maschine is nice, but not as flexible)

• effects like Beat Repeat, and various randomising functions in Ableton that can be applied to midi to chop up beats and create variations

• the ability to see and adjust envelope settings for each drum sound, AND their sends and returns at the same time, in the same compact visual interface.

• the ability to see the names of each sample/drum sound on the piano roll in Ableton. 'Import to Midi Notes' doesn't do this. As I sometimes like to shift midi notes manually, not knowing what is what visually is a bit of a pain in the ass.
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BTW, as always - thanks for your constructive comments, and informed suggestions.

I hope I'm not coming across as having a whinge - I just think there is a better way of doing things - a more intuitive way, that perhaps other people would like and would improve their workflow too.

If it could be built, would you find such functionality useful?

 

Fair enough, but as someone else, I think, said, it seems very much that you want to work in Ableton Live really...

And as I said before, what you want would require some kind of Maschine kit to Ableton Live drum rack converter, as the reference files you talk about are the Maschine kit and Ableton Live drum rack files.

However, it appears that most of what you want Ableton Live for could be achieved by simply using a Maschine instance as your drum rack, no?
This would avoid having to reset all parameters (which would still be a problem with your magical conversion unless the conversion converted all parameters from your Maschine kit to a drum rack, though there would probably still be some discrepancies) and avoid the sounds being different and avoid having the do much changing at all really. You've done all the work on the beat (or whatever) in Maschine already, why do half of it again?

To be honest, in some ways, it seems like you're actually complicating your "workflow".

 

I don't understand this as I find working with scenes and patterns in Maschine a breeze to build arrangements. And it works just like Ableton Live's session view. I also don't understand wanting to transfer your Maschine project to Live's Drum Rack either. I find Maschine far superior due to its hands-on mouseless workflow.

When I was still using Live, my preferred method was dragging in audio clips in Live. But now I've ditched Live altogther from my production setup and use Maschine exclusively for that. Once I have my arrangement in Maschine, I just export to individual stems and drag those over to Logic for mixing.

There are many different ways to use Maschine which is great. But because of that, it's too easy to over-complicate your workflow. It's worth reassessing what you're ultimately trying to accomplish and what might the quickest, simplest, most straightforward way to achieve that. Just my two cents.

 

Maybe, after this discussion, this is the best way to do things, for now. But you can't really blame me for looking into other possible ways it might work.

Just a couple of things - if doing it this way, using an instance of Maschine as a VST - how do I apply an effect to just one hit, or one drum sound in Ableton?

Also, is there a way of labelling the piano roll, so I know what sound is what in Ableton?

Yeah, I'm starting to realise that this would be the biggest issue with such a method Fair play. This is probably the main reason something like this wouldn't work.
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I would love to work entirely in Maschine... maybe I'm missing something re. the virtues of the arrangement window?

You don't find it limited? Does the fact you can't see all your automation in the arrangement not annoy you?

(I'm a pretty visual-based guy - so maybe it is just me!)

Also, I don't like the way that if I incidentally select a scene, and then start making patterns - Maschine automatically populates that scene with the pattern modification. Is there a way of over-riding this behaviour - so that patterns are ONLY placed into the arrangement deliberately by drag and drop?

I might try that, too - but obviously you have to go back to Maschine if you decide that you want to modify a clip later in building your arrangement.

I take it that you were applying all your EQs, compression and effects in Maschine, too?

Just so I'm clear, you are doing EVERYTHING in Maschine, except your final mixdown? Is that essentially your current process?

 

Well, ive had this issue with live and maschine for a while. I do find mashine's arranger far too limited and im a visual person as well, and work with vocals a lot. My workflow now is dragging and dropping everything from maschine as an audio track, then applying new effects/compressors etc in abelton. It works quite well although my projects are quite big using every group, with lots of different patterns. Its does take a while to export everything in audio. But once i commit to audio i can actually finish my tunes instead of tweaking them until im bored of all the sounds.

The good thing is, you can freeze the maschine track saving cpu, and can always go back to it if you need to change something. Lately i save the maschine session in live, then delete it completly from the project saving lots of CPU, and if i need it again i just load a new maschine instance and load the file- named the same as the project. I do find maschine quite cpu intensive when you have a full project. Im on a fast macbook pro, 4g ram but find by the end a project CPU can get to 60% or so and glitches... so deleted and saving that maschine instance sorts any problems for me.

Give audio a go, you may finish a lot more tunes this way.

 

Yup. I just export when I'm done and I have all separate tracks ready to be dragged and dropped into Logic for mixdown.