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My VST workflow is still a freaking miserable mess

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by StarSMASH, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    Hey you guys might know me as the frustrated dude with maschine problems and many posts trying to make sense of this BS.

    Maschine VST + Logic.

    When i am recording from VST into logic (routing through aux and record enabled).

    I started a project standalone, then ran into CPU issues. What i did was i created a duplicate project and stripped the unnecessary plug ins moving forward (mistake #1. should've just continued in VST mode because now i have more routing confusion from deleting instruments in the newer project). The 16 ext. routing limitation in maschine makes for very complicating and messy work environment and i find myself scrolling moreso than actually editing. I could use folders in my DAW which would help. I found myself jumping from different maschine instances and switching routing and buses which made my brain absolute fart and i couldn't even understand where i was at many moments in time. I've also learned to FINISH ROUTING/RECORDING ALL SOUNDS ONE INSTANCE AT A TIME. But how can i do this when i continued with some of the same instruments on different instances???? again, i know next time to just continue VST mode as EARLY as possible, but i already have a few projects set up like this from when i didn't know any better. I can't even save the routing in VST mode so i don't have to manually route each sound in every instance again and switch back and forth because i forgot which one is which. I'd have to open standalone and do this for EACH GROUP.

    This isn't even touching on my CPU issues while using multiple maschine instances.

    This is misery and i'm really hoping there is a better way to finish these projects. I'll gladly take any tips, because i feel like i'm making things way more complicated than it needs to be???
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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  2. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    Personally after playing with logic and maschine, my way of using them together would be , to use maschine ideas view to rec patterns and then drag the midi over to logic . So maschine is basically an ideas view for logic , or similar to the session view in ableton .
    Then you have access to , arp , note repeat , scale and chords .
    I would only use one instance , id probably use it more for drums, tho I could use vst synths etc , but I’d drag the midi to its own vst , loaded on its own logic track , to avoid running out of channels . If i ran of channels, I might send some of the drums on one channel and mix the volumes in maschine .
     
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  3. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    Yea, that sounds pretty good i guess. that's actually better because you can easily shut off double monitor by just switching to maschine arranger view. I've always hated the drag and drop function as a main workflow because it can be tedious with the more patterns you have and i've always thought about it as complimentary. The other thing is though, the drag and drop function isn't solid for me. sometimes it will drop no audio at all, and i just ran into some issue where i had a tempo change in my DAW and when i drag and dropped, the sample was distorted. I'm sure it has an easy fix, but i never stuck around for that. I'm really learning there is no perfect workflow with maschine. You just choose different problems.
     
  4. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    Porting Over a song from maschine is a pita , for that I’d just route the audio , I’ve given up porting my old tunes into logic via midi .
    But from scratch I think I’d start the way I suggested,
    Once you have some patterns in logic you can duplicate in there , cut and paste , or make use of the double feature in maschine and use longer patterns.

    Is everything up to date ? Do you use the multi timbral plug in , I’ve not had no problems with drag and drop , I’ll look into it tomorrow, set up a template and make a tune to see what’s what .
     
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  5. ShelLuser

    ShelLuser NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    703
    First off: I don't use Logic so apologies if some of the things I'm sharing don't apply.

    Just curious here but are you routing individual stuff out? I suppose it depends on workflow (and your material) but considering that you can also apply some mixing on Maschine I more than often use the combined output from Maschine as-is; any adjustments I apply (eq/filter, limiter, etc.) are set up within Maschine.

    I can't help wonder if this also wouldn't help you to lower some stress from your DAW, because all those channels need processing which only adds to the overal load?

    Pen & paper time? Not trying to be funny here but... colour your groups and simply set up a quick color / routing diagram of some sort?

    Yet I still wonder why insist on somewhat excessive routing at all? Unless of course you're working on some kind of surround project, but even then 5:1 seems to be a generally accepted standard.
     
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  6. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    Thinking about it
    You could , say for drums make a 4 bar pattern, double it , change the last four bars , double it to 16 add a fill at the end , double it to 32 have a different fill Or breakdown , then drag that into logic, on a multi timbral vst it will separate the sounds to individual tracks then cut and delete bits like the hi hats , kick and snare if you want to remove sections

    That’s 32 bars do similar for an intro and a chorus , then do the same with other instruments.
    To me that sounds quick , in fact it sounds much quicker than using maschines arranger

    You could actually drag one massive loop pattern say 128 bars into logic and just go to town with the cut /delete to change it up , then go back to maschine and do little 4/8 bar fills buildups for some sounds like the kick and drag that into logic and overlap it
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  7. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    Yea i definitely will think about using this method for newer projects. It's just the older ones i have anxiety about. Spent 6 hours with routing confusion on an already produced track. I rarely use maschine ideas mode, but the way you presented it seems most useful even if i have to drag and drop. Let me know if you encounter any weird drag and drop issues during tempo changes in your daw. drag and drop the same audio in two different automated BPMs in the same project.

    My issue is i tend to get lost in my project in standalone mode and just keep going and then run into VST issues once i switch over much later on.
     
  8. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    Yeah same with me , that’s why I ended up staying in maschine , and mixing in there , but I’m gonna try my way out tomorrow and make a basic drum and bass tune , where I can make some quick patterns .

    At the moment I’m trying to port over songs to the 707 , I’m sending midi from maschine patterns to the 707 and recording it .
     
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  9. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    I try to mix as little as possible in maschine so I can have that mixing freedom later on in the DAW, ESPECIALLY with my weak kicks, but that’s a minor problem compared to this disastrous workflow. I do route individual outputs but will consider channeling my layered snares and such together through a reverb. Your color comment made me realize I could do better with organization. I usually use colors but only during mixing. I guess I can make 1-16 Orange, 17-32 blue, so it’s not just color coded, but number coded as well. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  10. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    This will actually work wonders as long as I have the presence of mind mid workflow to implement it lol. My drums change so frequently though (every 4-8 bars) that I’d be dragging and dropping more often. I could just make longer patterns though. I wish maschine made it so you can combine patterns easier instead of having to manually having to make it snap and fit before copy and pasting
     
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  11. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    I think because ideas view is fairly new , compared to the older ways of using maschine and logic , like midi mode and just routing the audio , it’s been overlooked, to me it now makes a lot of sense to utilise idea view in Logic , instead of arranging patterns in the maschine arrangement window , you just arrange them in logic , from there you can cut/copy paste , glue/merge patterns etc , so you get the editing freedoms of a proper daw , but you also get the controller, speed and smart play feature of maschine

    I’m definitely going to try this , because on paper it sounds good .
     
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  12. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,659
    The most CPU efficient way I found to use machine vst was indeed to open several instances with one group per instance. Each instance represent a mixbus and I sequence everything in maschine using the timeline in myvdaw for mixbus automations, still, I also apply effects on mascine groups to keep the joys of nks control. It is also easy and convenient to switch vst instances from controller, I just regret it is not possible to change instances name for more convenient workflow. It is also easy to create additional tracks in the saw if required and apply send effects from the daw on every busses. The whole purpose of that was to get more performance fro that combination since most daws use hyper threading , maschine doesn't.
    Still, I now do more and more in maschine as with a bit of practice I learned to optimize a lot and take advantage of its routing capabilities.
     
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  13. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,256
    You can tho, save the Maschine projects once and name them, you can delete the .mxprj's afterward because they are saved inside the DAW Project, names are preserved.
     

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  14. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,659
    Nice, didn't catch that one. Thanks D !
     
  15. AureVoir

    AureVoir NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    537
    StarSMASH What is the strength in using more than 2 instances of the Maschine 2 AU within Logic Pro X?
     
  16. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    Agreed with all of this for the most part. My issue is I already lay out most of my track in maschine and may have my drums in three different groups, Some with only a few sounds, so they aren’t all glued together in the same group for routing and I’m jumping around back and forth since you cannot copy and paste whole pattern arrangements, ie. Copy and pasting all the patterns across different scenes. That would be a GREAT addition to an update that could combat maschine a rigid layout.
     
  17. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    So you’re saying you have to save different maschine projects by using the “save a copy” feature, then renaming manually through the Mac folders ? Sorry but I am misunderstanding.
     
  18. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    852
    If you’re recording audio from maschine into your DAW, you can do this to set it and forget it instead of recording and constantly re routing your external sources. I use a template so I don’t have to redo too much of this though.
    I also have different maschine projects with different instruments and some taken away from the first project because I ran into cpu issues in standalone mode and had to strip some VST’s for the second project.
     
  19. ALDREAD

    ALDREAD NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    4,778
    Maschine really needs better midi export options , like export full song and not just patterns.

    Ideas view kinda works , you can quickly make large patterns to drag to logic from there you can use the scissors to cut them up , and edit ,copy and paste , but you need to move logics loop range so there’s no midi being sent to maschine when you want to record a new pattern, or use two indentical groups in maschine , switch off the group midi input on the first group and use the second group to record new patterns or to add to the pattern on group 1 whilst still hearing the pattern in group 1 ( which is what logic would be triggering) ,because if logic is sending midi , maschine will record that midi back to group 1 even if you select group 2 ( it auto switches back to group 1 on record)
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  20. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,659
    Like you I struggle to go back to old projects when I had a poor workflow, because I didn't catch the logic behind Maschine, there is indeed frustrating moment because a lot of DAWs nowadays have very convenient drag and drop features . And truly, I stopped killing my workflow using Maschine as a vst even if it's doable and can be convenient but certainly not ideal, so I had to rethink my process. I improved my workflow in Maschine and use a lot more standalone to complete my project. At this stage I only miss being able to reimport my track for a mixing session with real time audio buffering which cruelly miss in the audio module, so I try to do all in one, and it starts to work fine with a bit of practice and new habits. I use stock plugin and NI plugins suite more and more and more ...
    One overlooked way to save a lot of cpu that I saw on this forum the other day and put to practice is to set the outpus of unused sound slots to none...very efficient and could help you with your old projects. . Another thing I do a lot if I want to spread a project like you do is to save each group with pattern instead of deleting unused ones and save the whole project, it is then fast and easy to load the saved group in a new vst instance in your Daw.
     
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