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N.I. -PLEASE- pursue NS7 / NS7II support.

Discussion in 'DJ Controllers' started by t0t4l_n3wb, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. bigboibbp

    bigboibbp NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    28
    As much as I would love to throw more money at NI for something like a NS7II I just don't see it happening anymore. It's a combination of money switching hands, backdoor partnerships and NI shooting themselves in the foot through keeping some features and control languages exclusive to themselves (let's not mention the numerous amounts of non disclosure agreements that have been signed). Needless to say, when NI stated taking aim at the hardware market share they declared war... We need to start hoping they start making some acquisitions because other manufacturers are not so willing to play nice with NI anymore.

    Read: Allen & Heath DB:4 Owners being burned with no Traktor certification.

    To much politics in my opinion... Sticking to my current setup for now...
     
  2. KLH

    KLH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    566
    As a prior owner of the NS7, this is NI's view.

    -KLH
     
  3. Sinjintek

    Sinjintek NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    322
    I started reading the thread but decided to fast forward to the end. Unfortunately for you, most of the responses are correct.. its extremely unlikely we will ever see support for the Numark NS7, V7 or NS7II. The primary reason for this as I understand, and both Quartz and I worked on this an agree, is that the NS7 uses two distinct MIDI signals in order to transmit its impressively accurate performance. In order to support these products, NI would need to implement the additional programming to account for this additional input.. and its just not likely, nor is it highly beneficial in a business sense, to develop support for such niche hardware that is developed and marketed for an entirely different product (Itch, and now Serato DJ). Also, I suppose it would somewhat of a renegade move to "officially" support a product that is sold in partnership with a direct competitor.. the potential of opening a legal can of worms is simply not worth the effort and cost.

    I think you might be better suited to appeal to Numark to develop a separate product that is either "open" or specifically for Traktor, similar to the 4Track is compared to the NS6. Why this hasn't been done already I do not know, but I suspect Numark has good reason.. but on the other hand I feel the NS6 may have outsold the 4Track significantly, so if viewed as a gauge for marketability it would seem the Serato partnership has proven far more beneficial.

    I do feel your pain, even now my V7s sit in their cases awaiting the upgrade to Serato DJ.. and if not properly supported, will likely be nixed from my collection to be replaced by the Denon 3900s. I have tremendous respect for what Numark has done in creating these fine machines, but the proprietary nature on Serato has left me wanting.. the saving grace of Serato DJ will be the access to 3rd party midi programming.
     
  4. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    Uh huh... NS6 and 4 Track aren't motorized though. And I already posted a thread once a long time ago suggesting that N.I. put motorized platters into any controller they make to succeed the S4, and all that got was a bunch of bitching and naysaying. So from that alone, I highly doubt the reason they're sleeping on the NS7 support is because they're coming out with their own similar motorized controller. They don't -care- about having perpetual motion and tactile feedback for their controllers. They're content with dead jog wheels and probably always will be, even through 2 or 3 or 4 generations of NS7 style rigs.

    http://www.native-instruments.com/f...64317-S4-and-future-models-MOTORIZED-PLATTERS!

    "N.I. doesn't care about motorized platters, if you want real vinyl simulation, get -real- decks."

    "It won't happen, their software isn't set up to read that kind of information."

    If that's the case, how the hell did Quartz get it working so damn good?
    https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=500292700064&oid=446440350014
    And yes, I know I keep posting -the same- video, but only because it's proof positive that
    it -can- work and actually work well enough to sound nearly on par with real vinyl. I keep
    listening to / watching it, over and over and over... letting my ears and eyes soak in it.

    Clearly there is -some- way around this hurdle, and when that threshold is finally crossed
    it isn't going to matter one bit what N.I., Serato or Numark want or don't want.

    I'm not -supposed- to be able to use a Wii Classic Controller on my PC for retro gaming,
    but thanks to a lovely little company called Mayflash -I FRIGGIN' DO IT ANYWAY-

    If this hack does happen, who loses out? Not Numark, because people will -still-
    have to drop that thou and a half for an NS7 or NS7 II. Not Serato since their
    software is still bundled with the controlller. Traktor? People like me on platforms
    that Serato aren't compatible with (AMD) would be coming back to them like a
    junkie to their dealer. "Well, that's money in the pocket of their competitor, still."
    Big whoop, so some dollars of the NS7 costs will go to some Serato software
    that's gunna get tossed to the side like an AOL disc in the late 90s.

    Honestly I think this whole thing is stupid. If N.I. had just stuck to software
    that got used with everyone else's hardware (and the occasional 'Maschine')
    this probably wouldn't have even been an issue. They wouldn't have an S4
    to be pushing, keeping them from playing nice with the other kids on the court.
    At this point, I'd kinda like to see N.I. wind up in a reverse Sega position.
    Probably won't happen, but with how they've become they deserve it
    and maybe they would learn some friggin' humility and re-learn how
    to make customers happy and actually -listen- to them.

    I don't -want- to have to change platforms or OS simply to use a software
    when I've got a software that works fine already. I -like- Traktor, granted it
    certainly could stand to go through some changes to really keep it relevant,
    but it works on my relatively fast PC, I like its effects, I like having access to
    all the options, and it runs reliably without pops n' clicks or crashing.

    But Serato is probably going to over-take them seeing as how they've already
    aped their effects and they have stacked waves and elastic beatgrids going in
    their favor. They get reliable AMD support and I'll have no reason left to cling to
    TSP begging for support that will apparently never come. And y'all say "it's niche,
    they're not gunna waste their time and money to please a niche market."

    Isn't digital deejaying itself a 'niche' market? Motorized controllers are 'niche'
    -for now- but what about in another 5, 10 years when the NS7 model type is
    dominant and motorized platters are on nearly -all- DJ controllers just like Analog
    Sticks became dominant on almost every game console controller? When replacing
    needles and tone arms goes the way of cleaning your VCR's tape heads and blowing
    out your NES carts, is Traktor -still- gunna be stuck in 2004 with 'jogs only' controllers
    and spaced out waveforms, or will they have finally stopped digging in their hooves
    and tried to catch up with the rest of the herd which by then, will be miles ahead?
     
  5. jdownesbaird

    jdownesbaird Forum Member

    Messages:
    437
    OP, Sinjintek just explained to you why they "don't care" about Numark support, but you seem to have already made up your mind with a conspiracy theory:

    "In order to support these products, NI would need to implement the additional programming to account for this additional input.. and its just not likely, nor is it highly beneficial in a business sense, to develop support for such niche hardware that is developed and marketed for an entirely different product (Itch, and now Serato DJ)."

    It doesn't matter if someone hacked it to work in a video. To OFFICIALLY support a product requires many more resources (programming AND legal). Just because it is technically possible to get them working doesn't mean that it could easily be brought to market (or that NI has an obligation to do so). Again, really read Sinjintek's explanation, and chill a bit. Or, you can keep ranting about how much you dislike NI even as you beg them to support a competitor's product.
     
  6. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    If "hacked" support is as good as "legit" support, I don't really care if it has anyone's blessings.
    If it works, it works, that is all that really matters. I don't think they would go all Sony on my ass; "How
    dare you hack that PS3 we still own that we just 'rent' to you to play burned games and run emulators!
    It's the party van for you, boy!" (You see the joke I'm trying to make with this?)
    [http://www.computerandvideogames.com/308550/ps3-hacker-im-probably-going-to-jail-soon/ (I know, off topic)
    ((I really hope something like that doesn't happen to Quartz, as that would suck)).


    And you read all the stuff dude was saying, yeah? Listened to his butter
    smooth scratches and him explaining it in that 'proof of concept' viddie on FB?
    How he got it working -despite- Traktor not being able to read the allegedly 'proprietary'
    Midi time stamp? It isn't like it's completely unfeasible so really, it irks me when there are
    so many saying "it -can't- happen." No, it -can- and he friggin' -proved- that it can.


    "With the TSI, you can do everything and scratch somewhat with midi support.
    The true performance comes in when the HID support is added. No one is saying anything,
    except Numark claims Q1 support for the NS7 in Traktor. That's all I know for right now. One of
    the biggest reasons I started the project ground was to show how much power the NS7 standalone
    can have with Traktor over Itch. All the myths that were floating around about Itch being the only app
    to be able to provide low latency and tight platter control needed to be smashed
    . So, to re-iterate what
    I did, the beta I'm demonstrating (in the FB video) has HID controls available in it. So I'm still using 98%
    midi for everything, I would say even 99%. However, the 1% - 2% of HID control was used for platter
    control and a few minor mixer controls, due to direct mapping."



    Okay, they're not obligated, even if Numark did drop -numerous- statements saying that
    they had it demo-ing at Plasa '09 with Traktor (I wish CTRL-D would have taken caps of the
    links he left in that 66 page Quartz thread, since they're all 404'd), that they -had- planned to
    support it, and "gave N.I. the support files and an NS7 to have their tech guys look over," and
    that "support is in the works" - I care not about "obligation." I just care about it happening -at all-

    http://s24.postimg.org/tgl9nra05/Statement_From_Numark.png
    http://s17.postimg.org/m0vvs7s3z/PLASA_2009.png
     
  7. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    It's not that I dislike N.I., it's that I dislike all the politics that have apparently came in to play to
    keep this from happening, that and the apparent refusal to evolve or even acknowledge a 66 page
    thread of clamoring from their consumers. It's 2013, going on 14, not 2004. These other guys don't
    really care so much about "not copying off the other guy" (what, so Traktor has a copyright on having
    effects and VDJ and Itch have a copyright on having stacked waveforms? So is that why Serato has the
    Wolfpack and others? To -not- copy features from Traktor to please all its users who migrated over to
    them -from- Traktor?) If anything I want to see N.I. keep expanding and adapting and adding more
    support for new breeds of controller, regardless of the maker. Did N.I. give any F's that people were
    rigging their Hercules controllers or their crummy little $19 DM2 Mixmans like I had in '04? "Go ahead,
    we don't care, we just make software." Don't see why they should care now, the only diff between
    then and now is they make hardware like the S4, and that foray, I feel is blinding them to the other
    possibilities. Unless they come out with their own motorized platform, I don't see them being able
    to remain relevant in a future landscape where every other USB DJ kit manufacturer has an NS7-ish
    type controller. There's too much convenience (no needles to have to replace, no physical medium,
    even if it is just a timecoded disc, to get scratched up), portability (Quartz and others have spoken
    on how much easier it is to set up something like the NS7 than it is to drag their turntables w/ them)
    and other practicalities and benefits to this for it to -NOT- catch on and become something everyone
    else out there copies (except for N.I. who will still keep hanging on to lifeless jogs) It's like if Sony
    stuck to the Dpad only controller back on PS1 and never tried Analog Sticks. 2D controls suck for
    controlling a 3D game where there's more than just 8 directions to go and lifeless jog wheels suck
    for trying to emulate the feel of manipulating sound in a manner close to actual vinyl.
     
  8. makar1

    makar1 Forum Member

    Messages:
    3,343
    You seem to be vastly overestimating the demand for motorized jog wheels.
     
  9. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=497752865064&set=o.446440350014&type=3&permPage=1

    If Quartz had put his vidz on Youtube instead of FB, there would have been -way- more people
    seeing this and way more people having hope that it would work out, thus, way more people
    bitching at N.I. to get it done. And Overestimating demand? A 66 page thread of nothing but
    people asking for NS7 support isn't a good enough estimation? The comments section of all
    the combined NS7 vids on Youtube isn't a good enough estimation of how much this aspect is
    desired and would revolutionize the controller industry? Did you even bother looking or does
    seeing it at all agitate you that much? Things are changing for the better, don't fight it.

    I hope when the NS7 II drops, Quartz will find a way to make that work too...


    From a discussion on his Project NS7 FB page...

    http://s11.postimg.org/3wz5sc3sj/screencaps.png

    Deejay Quartz:
    I had the platters, everything working but it wasn't available to
    the public at the time and was based on the old Traktor Pro.


    With my TSI, the platters and everything worked. The problem is the build I was
    working with was only available for windows so that was the other problem as well.


    Wasn't available to the public? Am I to infer from this that N.I. actually did have a version
    of Traktor coming out to be used with the NS7, but were keeping it all hush-hush? Is that
    what all that "so many non-disclosure agreements being signed" meant, bigboibbp???
     
  10. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Messages:
    12,073
    I'm not sure what Quartz means by "only available for windows" but it's probably because he was a Windows user. I dunno.
    As for what you should infer, I don't know if you are aware of this but at that time DJ Quartz was a Moderator and Beta Tester for NI. This is why he had a build or builds that were not public. He will have had the same beta builds as I have had.

    NI have never had a version of Traktor for use with the NS7.
    I feel that you are reading to much conspiracy into this whole issue.

    Karlos
     
  11. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    Well, it's kinda hard -not- to. Without info and clear respondes -from the companies- it's easy
    for folks to come up with their own conclusions. From how I read Quartz posts, it sounded like
    "this is the -only- version of Traktor that I've gotten the NS7 to work this well with, but since it's
    a beta that can't be released to the public, once it goes past this, that's it. It will no longer be
    possible outside of -this- specific version, which I can't share."
     
  12. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Messages:
    12,073
    I'm guessing that something changed in the mapping options for jog wheels from one build to another which (inadvertently) prevented Stephens TSI from working on the newer build.

    This is my guess, it was all a long time ago.

    I think you may have to accept that not getting clear responses, is the clear response.

    I cannot think of one occasion when NI have used/implemented/adopted hardware that was previously linked to Serato or another company. I may be wrong about that but in my experience that is simply not how NI roll.

    Karlos
     
  13. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    And still, the only things I can think are "they -had- the capability..."

    So, to re-iterate what I did, the beta I'm demonstrating (in the FB video)
    has HID controls available in it. So I'm still using 98% midi for everything,
    I would say even 99%. However, the 1% - 2% of HID control was used for
    platter control and a few minor mixer controls, due to direct mapping."


    "...but they decided it would open up too big of a can of worms (the possibility
    of N.I. customers using their competitor's hardware) and left that feature out."

    Yes, I'm reading too much into it, but then, I don't -know- the real story, I need
    a full picture otherwise my mind will take what pieces it has and form its own.

    If Quartz could drop by and speak candidly about this, maybe I and others would
    better understand. But then again, he's probably under one of those "non-disclosure"
    agreements. I assume you guys have to sign those to even -do- beta testings, correct?

    And I know you're itching to lock down this thead, Karlos, but at
    least maybe wait until "Stephen" shows up to chip in his buck 'o five.
    (orrrrr, maybe be nice and let people continue to comment this?)


    "I have no idea if/when the NS7 will be implemented in Traktor. If they decide to
    include it in a future update, you will find out the same time I do.

    carlos
    Native Instruments Support Team"
     
  14. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

    Messages:
    12,073
    I doubt he would have anything to tell. It's all documented on the forum. You are definitely assuming what you want to assume not what is in black and white.
    Our NDA's prevent us from speaking on many aspects of software development so I guess that makes it convenient for you to assume you are not being told the whole truth..?

    I have absolutely no compulsion to lock this thread, in fact I could care less about this thread. I have no interest in the NS7. If people want to keep on a crusade that's for them to do.

    Oh and you're highlighting my use of Quartz's name is for what purpose? He's my friend. We've been friends away from the forums for years. It just shows that you are approaching this issue from an angle, defensive and slightly posturing. I don't see any need. I am keeping this friendly.

    I'm merely giving you the information you may have missed as you were not around here when Quartz was.

    Have you contacted him. If you are waiting for him to post something on the forum that he shouldn't, I can tell you he won't. Firstly because there is nothing to tell and secondly, he's not that kinda guy. I guess all he will do is tell you what you already know, that there is nothing more to know.

    Karlos
     
  15. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    Listen. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm coming across as demanding, rude, assumptious, or whatever.
    It's just that, it annoys me that I keep reading stuff that made it seem like this was gunna be a
    possibility, and then it just vanished. I have caps of remarks from Numark on FB saying they gave
    everything necessary for testing over to N.I., that it was in their hands. Then there was those links
    CTRL-D posted of stuff on Numark's own sites saying they had people demoing the NS7 on Traktor,
    that it was working and there were plans for compatibility, but those are all 404'd now (ya shoulda
    made screencaps, man!) Then there's the way you and everyone else talk, definitely makes it seem
    even more like the reason behind lack of support is all corporate politics and N.I. not wanting Serato's
    "sloppy seconds," so to speak. (Why can't they just share?)

    Ooooooooor, maybe I really am just jumping to massive conclusions and they're
    actually still working on it, but aren't ready to release anything yet until it's final.

    I wasn't trying to 'do something' with your using Q's actual name, I had zero intent
    of 'sparking drama' so I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I did contact him, but he
    has a busy life and I don't wanna piss him off, but I guess this thread's content might
    already do that. I hope not, because I'd really like to communicate further and know
    more about his work; what he did to get it working as smoothly as he did in his FB vids,
    if he still has his TSI files which I'd very much like to have to try out with the NS7 II when
    I eventually get my hands on that, and so on... but if it really was just that beta alone that
    the platters worked properly on and it's not possible on any other version, then I guess I'm
    just s.o.l. and so is anyone else who ever dreamt of having NS7 platters working w/ Traktor.

    It all just seems really unfair, but then I guess business is rarely about fairness.
     
  16. jdownesbaird

    jdownesbaird Forum Member

    Messages:
    437
    I am baffled as to why it's so hard for you to understand why NI wouldn't be interested in channeling resources into a competitor's controller that was originally designed to work with a competitor's software. Seriously, why would they do that? You keep mentioning that at one time it was apparently possible to somewhat make the NS7 work with Traktor. AGAIN, just because it was possible TECHNICALLY at some point doesn't mean it's simple/worthwhile/profitable/smart/legal for NI to OFFICIALLY provide support for the controller.

    I use Traktor, and my friend has an NS7. I use timecode vinyl, and I agree that it could be cool to use something like the NS7 instead of lugging around turntables. I know you are just enthusiastic about the idea, and that's cool. Fight on. But, seriously, it really doesn't make a lot of business sense for NI to make this work. My humble advice? Stop trying to dissect and analyze and read into every little post and quote from the past few years, hoping to find answers you'll never get (or that, honestly, you already have). Adopt a puppy or something, channel that frantic enthusiasm in a productive way, and hope for the best.:)
     
  17. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    Did you watch Quartz' videos on FB??? There wasn't no "technically" about it.
    It worked... you can watch it work and hear it work. And I -do- have other hobbies.
    (http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13092)
    (http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25688)

    I'm sure N.I. didn't intend for people to use crummy old DM2 Mixmans with their software either like I
    and others were doing way back in '04 using MidiOx, but people did it because they could... granted it
    was complete crap and just something to tinker around with. And what happens when someone -does-
    get the NS7 or mark II to work with Traktor -unofficially- and well? Send the party van to their door?
    *KNOCK-KNOCK-KNOCK* "Traktor Police! Open up! We know you're using contraband hardware with our
    software!" What happened to letting the users have options? So N.I. wants to keep HID / midi time-stamp
    (or whatever was in the build Quartz had the NS7 working with) locked out because they don't want competition,
    well okay, come out with something capable of standing up against it, like a motorized S4.

    "But active platters really aren't as big a deal as you make them."
    Yeah? It could be -made- into a big deal if they bothered to try.
    Numark did... the rest of the industry will follow suit in time,
    where will N.I. be then? Behind the curve.
     
  18. jdownesbaird

    jdownesbaird Forum Member

    Messages:
    437
    I wrote "technically" as in the word TECHNICAL, meaning it's physically and technologically capable of working. I'm not disputing that. But you are ignoring all the other reasons why NI wouldn't actively pursue this, which I've mentioned twice now. And what's this about "Traktor Police"? Just because NI isn't pursuing official support for this controller doesn't mean they are somehow wasting time scheming to keep it from happening. They just aren't interested in using resources in this manner. Again, you love conspiracy theories.

    And how many people in the industry (with ANY DJ software) really are using controllers with motorized platters? How is NI behind the curve by not catering to a relatively tiny group of users? The NS7 has been out for a while, and it hasn't exactly become the standard. Face it: most of the DJ world isn't really interested in this Traktor/NS7 thing happening, and international companies tend to make products that cater to the majority. That doesn't mean they hate you or your ideas, or that they wouldn't want compatibility if possible. It just means it's not the priority, and you have to deal with that.
     
  19. t0t4l_n3wb

    t0t4l_n3wb Forum Member

    Messages:
    49
    I was making a joke, like N.I. would pursue users who used hacks / work arounds to get the NS7 and Traktor working
    the same way Sony 'rents' consumers their PS3s and will take their asses to court for modding or trying to revive
    features that were taken out (see Graf Chokolo and the "Other O.S." feature Sony played 'indian giver' with).


    Hmm, interesting little remark here.
    excited.png
    So I gotta ask, what happened to that "excitement?" Why and when did
    N.I. cease to be ''excited'' to work with Numark on supporting the NS7?
     
  20. jdownesbaird

    jdownesbaird Forum Member

    Messages:
    437
    You are digging up quotes from 2009, before the S4 was even released. Things change. This is ridiculous.

    I'm out. Best of luck with your crusade.