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Native Instruments exec shakeup: Daniel Haver and M. ate Galic are out as CEO and President

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by toneyrome, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Mutis

    Mutis NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    375
    That wasn't my main point so first clean things and later discuss about your "statements".

    I was pointing about two people talking about future of music making but the thing is, aside their own kids, there are a lot of actual musicians doing things on iOS/iPadOS. That doesn't means "only touch based apps" being Launchpad app (AmpifyxNovation) the best example since it works with touch interface (very well implemented) but also with Launch Control series (making the app a sales point). NI did something similar with the first iPad Traktor dj app and Z1 and it's doing the same with the new TDJ2 and S2/3. Tactile as you called (haptic is the correct term) is a must for me and for lots of musicians but as days gone lots of young people discuss the same opposite in this very forum (maybe even this post, I don't since I answer to replies constantly). So no, you didn't get my point right but also it isn't important at all. I prefer this discussion since is more interesting ;)

    You can "highly doubt" where the focus should be but where numbers are becomes a different thing .These are so clear to that point where even Apple is ditching x86 in favour of ARM and macOS in favour of iPadOS (merging them but porting features from mobile into the desktop more than desktop into mobile). This is also highly doubtable and discussed over the forums over years... but it's happening. Just check how Logic Pro X got Live Loops feature from Garageband iPad. Let's hope Apple also ports Logic into iPad or brings some new kind of Laptop ala Lenovo Yoga or whatever... if the ARM mac mini for devs (with iPad pro chip) can run Logic, new iPad should do it too.
    Obviously they need to work at best touch features alongside keeping improving "mouse, trackpad and keyboard" to iPadOS (which also are coming of course) so not "just touch interfaces" as you can see.

    Said that and without knowing what Apple is going to bring in desktop/laptop domain... I'm also getting a bit tired of mobile drawbacks inherent to the platform (born over mobile needs such phone calls, social network focus, cpu throttling etc etc etc) which makes me look into dedicated hardware more and more as time goes. I also pointed Kai @ NI about embed platform which can run Juce code. OT: that will let NI code once export everywhere (desktop, mobile and embed) but that's another history... OTend.

    The old CEO was stating over years that NI was an x86 brand and I pointed over the years that was an strategy mistake. Time has gone, NI has a lot of software outdated (due long dev cycle related to the platform and the size of the business) meanwhile iPad apps are getting more features than desktop like Algoriddim Djay Pro or DjPlayer. Then the lay offs and the rumours about selling Traktor division to A&H or inMusic. Bravo. Now Apple ditches x86 and brings some tools for "migration" and puts a 2years-deadline... that means "revamp your GUIs into touchable and retina displays". Also means code and libraries need to be ready for ARM so some foundations are being shaked ATM.

    In the end none of these is truly important, including our personal tastes or business vision since covid arrived to wreck all. Maybe we will not seen how this could have end... or maybe covid pushed the "warp speed" for some decisions. We will see I suppose.

    Some links:
    (Logic Pro Live Loops feature from Garageband iPadOS) (Also native support for Launchpad controllers...)

    https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2020...ition-kit-is-a-500-mac-mini-with-an-arm-chip/

    https://www.macrumors.com/guide/apple-silicon/

    (iPadOs Mouse support)

    (iPadOS Flies app external drive support)

    https://djworx.com/in-app-effects-come-to-launchpad-for-ipad/ (over 2.000.000 downloads)

    (Djay Pro AI neural mix, also video and loop deck...)

    https://djplayerpro.com (DVS, STEMS, MIDI Learn, cloud file streaming... on iPad and iPhone, old models not just the latest. A less than 100€ second hand market iPhone 6 or SE, iPad Air or mini can handle it.)

    https://djworx.com/dvs-through-an-ipad-dj-player/
    The old version had DVS on iPad1 and iPhone 4s on 2012...
     
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  2. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,421
    I just want everybody to know I have an important announcement to make next week...

    The future of NI is looking bright...
    Don't worry everybody is keeping their jobs.
     
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  3. skinswashdc

    skinswashdc Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,345
    Ipad has a ways to go...
     
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  4. BigPictureSound

    BigPictureSound NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    262
    As an owner of an iPad Pro and several hundred dollars worth of music making apps, I agree and actually think it's worse than that. I check the app store regularly and see a recurring trend of aging or abandoned music making apps. There are a few exceptions, but my observation is developers are not interested in fully committing to the platform. They do fly-by-night releases regularly and then drop off the face of the earth.

    Serious producers / engineers aren't going to bother, and in my opinion pro companies like NI shouldn't either because who wants to willingly convert their customers to Apple's walled garden that takes 30% or more of the profit and all the control of the customer?

    Smart companies will use the app store as a gateway drug to entice new users to come over to the pro world when they've had a taste. And tablets are one of the worst input mediums on earth. As iPadOS has evolved, Apple even realizes this which is why they now support a keyboard and mouse. At that point, why not just have a 13" laptop as it's arguably just as mobile and 10x's more productive.

    Yes, the app store is certainly a market but it absolutely isn't the future. If anything, walled garden markets are terrible for consumers in the end.
     
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  5. Bonus Beats

    Bonus Beats NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,463
    There could be a little bit of hope for the iPad as its extremely portable and thats becoming very desirable for people these days with busy lives. The main thing is that developers can make a bunch of toys to dole with but if you can't sequencer out a nice song on the fly then people are going to grow bored and throw the apps and iPad aside no matter how much they had originally paid for them. One really good app put there is Beat Maker 3 it can damn near throw competition with he Akai MPC One right now but it can't really do any decent sequencing unless you had a mouse on the iPad but the point is to be able to use your fingers because if you got the iPad out most likely your aren't sitting at a desk.

    There is even a little app that lets you take all your NI expansion samples and automatically make those into beat maker 3 kits or MPC kits. I was really blown away but hat app but still needs work on recording the jamming live like Ableton session view. Garage band for iPad is another one.. can't jam the sequence live so basically not work it.
     
  6. Mutis

    Mutis NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    375
    Less than 2 months for first Apple silicon based macs. We will see how it goes...
     
  7. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    A million times this. The iPad Pro flat out sucks if you're a serious professional hoping to actually be competitive and use industry-standard tools and workflows. It's definitely a cool toy, some apps do show potential, but the iPad as a piece of hardware, the OS and the apps, they've have all got a huge way to go until it's going to replace a desktop/laptop running Windows, macOS or even some flavour of Linux with tried-and-tested software that's been developed for quite literally decades. I don't think it's ever going to replace them either, even with the shift to Apple Silicon for Macs.

    I think hobbyists and even enthusiasts could create some fairly serviceable stuff using an iPad Pro, but it's not ideal, and if you're doing this all day, every day, and time is money to you, it's just not a good choice versus what a 13 year old kid with a cheap laptop can do.
     
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  8. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,421
    My first commandment will be to no longer supply anything to do with Apple and merge with Epic Games.
     
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  9. Mutis

    Mutis NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    375
    13 year old kids use iPads, that's the point. Those who not are using them is usually because big brothers teach them and that's why our field evolves so slow (but djs believe they are forward thinkers and future people lol) and then when a brand tries to evolve it finds so much resistance than even fail (ehem Stems). Few years ago Technics were the only turntable (and way) for djing... That mentality is so deep inside than even NI left Stems and D2 in the dust and gone for "motorized jogs" (sad).
    You are talking (as usual) like old headz (even more than the guys in the video) and you know what? It's not future... it's happening in front of you!

    Check the video again. They resist to admit it but they are starting to find it...
    [​IMG]

    You can laugh and deny as I said but I put some details about more than one scenario and waiting for Apple new Silicon chips. The impact on new development is clear and the brand with struggles is NI not Apple or Algoriddim. Traktor rumour about A&H acquisition (or Behr, inMusic) it's not a joke...

    Then again ask for techno and improvements etc... that moment gone. Maybe in the future will be another chance but TDJ2 based which is the new platform for Djing. TP3 will survive a little more and end. ARMacs are the last nail in the coffin for that technology (x86, non retina, no touch-friendly...) meanwhile TDJ2 has all that "needs" and it's implementing the lost requests (playlist, coloured cues...)

    Laugh but time will show you ;)

    And as a reminder. Tell me how many 13 yo boys do you see in this advertisement...


    As I said, we will see. My hopes are on step by step TDJ2 getting all the TP3 features but I can imagine Spleet steams getting top priority over NI stems or Remix decks...

    jm2c
     
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  10. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    8,975
    One can definitively be a Professional Producer, Musician, DJ, etc, nowadays with only an iPad, however, if you do Music for some industry like Cinema, Video Games, require collaboration with standard tools, work at a professional recording Studio, etc, etc, there's no way in hell you can use an iPad no matter how powerful it is, that just how it is in a lot of Music industry segments, we don't all do the same thing and a handheld device simply doesn't make sense for all scenarios.

    ARM-based laptops/tablets/hybrids might became a norm after the industry has had the time to adapt, we not quite there yet tho.

    I definitively I agree that the Music industry is very resistive to change, just look at standards like MIDI 1.0, Mini-jack, 32-bit, the "don't upgrade your OS or connect to the internet cause its dangerous, stick with Win7" old philosophy, "real DJ's use vinyl", "Sync is not real DJ'ing", etc.. it goes on and on still to this day... but we will never see a young kid repeating that crap.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
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  11. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,404
    That's not what is happening. Apple is not dropping macOS for iPadOS. Apple has made it very clear that they see the two as very different markets. Unless they change their minds macOS is here to stay for quite some time. Apple ditching x86 is another matter.

    As for the whole Garageband thing. This is not new. Apple uses Garageband as a test bed for Logic features and that has been the case since the original Garageband on macOS. Amps, and Pedalboard were features in Garageband first. Drummer was a feature on the iOS version of Garageband first. This is how Apple has operated the whole Logic Garageband relationship from the beginning. For one the team behind GarageBand iOS or otherwise is the same team behind Logic. Just like the team behind iMovie is the same team behind FCPX. It's why Apple bought those two pieces of software in the first place.
     
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  12. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    I see lots of 13 year old kids on laptops using FL Studio, and the occasional Ableton Live user. Most aren't using MIDI controllers of any kind, most aren't using external hardware of any kind either, and are just using VSTs or what comes bundled with FL Studio with their keyboard and trackpad. Perhaps it depends what country you live in as to what's popular?

    I see far more kids with desktop PCs for gaming that then end up getting used for making music though. That seems to be a really common trend.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
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  13. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,124
    As a company I'd have thought that whilst you should definitely be aware of what the up and coming are doing and very much take note, your user base is unlikely to be able to sustain itself on that demographic given the largest monied segment are people who probably can't remember being 20 let alone 13. In terms of actually influencing where music 'is' or 'is going' most are in their late teens / twenties and right through to cadaver land.
     
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  14. Mutis

    Mutis NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    375
    Those professionals are by far forgotten by Apple, that after trash bin can macpro, get forced to release a modular one. Prices are pushing lots of "pseudoprofessionals" into Windows (now that hackintosh are on trouble too). So if you are the person buying those macs getting Pioneer tour-line or new Denons should be peanuts for you.

    About seen young kids repeating that crap, the usual "iPads are toys not tools" of this forum and the aver"age" of its users tells the opposite. Maybe the good luck is all the people out there doing music instead arguing in forums. Anyways the video shows the talk and my capture shows a moment after lots of resistance where that "uncomfortable idea" arises from Constatine mouth.

    Ask PPC users, they will told you a different history... buy as I said, if Apple tells the truth (very uncommon on them) maybe they will keep they isolated as "pro" vs "consumers" like some blogs point. That pro segment with pro "tools" will be iMac Pro, Mac Pro, Mac mini pro... check prices and tell me if you fit on these too or you are just another person trying to tell himself "I can afford that because I make money with my mac". I have some designers friends struggling with this ATM. Nothing personal to you, just hard to see how people resist to market shift, tool evolutions and Apple usual lies.

    Yeah right to that point to even bring ARM chips from iPad into the Mac but these aren't merging and iPadOS isn't the foundation for macOS big Sur... :rolleyes:





    The most funny thing is that IDK if you use or not iPad for music (some of you stated being user from long time) but if you see the features going back and forth it's clear they are merging both: macOS + iPadOS. Maybe as "tablet mode" on windows etc but streamlined as usual Apple does things.

    There's the point about Rosetta 2 re-compiling x86 to ARM at install stage. I suppose (not being coder myself) that Apple has being seeding the foundation for this transition to make "actual" software the most compatible to new architecture but that fits (again) TDJ2 app (which is universal right now) but not TP3.



    Some captures from that keynote...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    max = macs for yt subtitles technology lol

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Read the last 3 pictures again.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They show monument valley an another but think Djay PRO iPad and DjPlayer running natively in desktop for the end of the year... also Logic Pro could run in iPad Pro if Apple wants to (probably not to keep the two lines separated until the end of convergence... so 2022-23)

    [​IMG]

    Just 16 ram makes a difference. Probably new Silicon apple new chips will bring more, that's my hope too but if Apple doesn't changes its price model... djs are more on the low tier for them than the professional tier.

    Once again I will say "covid maybe wreck the whole industry (djing) so first we need to get rid off and blablablah" but for sure 2021 is a new world for musicians.

    I will let you discussing all of this in this so futuristic forum (bbcode) due I'm a bit overwhelm about discussing the same things over and over. When in 2011, after long time discussing with my friend Norbert, finally I convinced him to code the needed part into arduino for the cdx midification... lots of discussing arised after that. Even my post about it were blocked at (old) Serato forum (I asked myself twelve times why?) so yes I'm very very futuristic... so much that cdx midification is an idea from 2008.


    https://cdm.link/2011/08/scratch-this-a-diy-project-repurposes-dj-controllers-as-scratch-inputs/

    Maybe I should tinker again on these things and find a solution to make any midi controller truly motorised (not like S4mk3, more like V7)... but who will want something like that? :rolleyes:

    Enjoy your fun and vision! Almost discussing about this makes me forget about the F-virus for a while...
     
  15. BigPictureSound

    BigPictureSound NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    262
    No one disagrees that it's possible to make great music on iPadOS and iOS right now and nothing wrong with being excited about the possibilities of the future. My point is mobile music making, right now at this moment in time, doesn't look to have a bright future.

    I know nothing about upcoming processor releases and don't need to for my argument because we can have the most powerful chip on earth and as long as it's tied to iOS or iPadOS it's already at a disadvantage. And you even kind of admit my point by posting two guys talking about the merging of iOS/iPadOS with Mac OS. Basically, you are agreeing with my point without realizing it. iPadOS as it stands, RIGHT NOW, isn't the future. Yeah, of course it might be if it merges with macOS, but then it is no longer really a tablet in the context that we are talking about it right now, at this moment in time, in the context of this thread.

    Yeah, of course, who doesn't see that the platforms could merge in the next ten years? In fact, Microsoft tried it a decade ago with their Metro UI that was to merge tablet, phone, and desktop into one cohesive os. While it failed, it is possible that Apple might consider it again, though unlikely.

    But again, try to address some of my valid observations instead of dismissing me as not future thinking, or whatever you said. And to drive my point home, see the screen shots below I took today of the app store that show hardly any interest by consumers in an already niche market which is iPadOS music making.

    Top categories on the home page no longer includes "music" starting last fall despite making no delineation between production apps and streaming apps.
    upload_2020-8-31_11-55-10.png

    Most popular sequencer app, Beatmaker 3, hasn't been updated in 10 months
    upload_2020-8-31_12-0-24.png
    The pitiful state of the Top Paid Music apps category featuring plenty old and outdated apps. Top 2 apps aren't even for sound design but a notation tool.
    upload_2020-8-31_12-2-39.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
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  16. Mutis

    Mutis NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    375
    Last answer. Until they (or their parents) figure the next iPad (no pro) will do more than these x86 laptops for less money (ok, Fortnite drama will not help but you get the point...) but we were talking about musicians (djs?) or gaming?
    Don't worry, Apple is going to get both next year. In fact forcing Fortnite devs into their rules is part of that "amazing" policies that Apple drives.

    Final disclaimer:
    I was a big fan of "just iPad musician" but as days gone I'm most into the standalone but Apple proposal is the less bad to say somethig... I see a notification meanwhile writing this and I hope is not from this tread 'cause I'm going to end here and not look at them xDDDD sorry to anybody, wasn't personal just burn out...
     
  17. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,124
    Maybe I'm in advanced dimmy mode but how come this thread has become so Apple centric? Even if I was 13 I still wouldn't touch Apple with anything short of a hand grenade :D
     
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  18. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    Without stirring the pot, I can name dozens of commercially successful, popular, innovative, technically impressive, and musically impressive users of every major DAW, and likewise for iconic pieces of hardware (from synths to samplers), and even Maschine with the likes of 40 and Richie Hawtin etc. But I come up blank with the iPad and any app that runs on one. Any songs, albums or artists to look at? I didn't find any on Google either.

    I found artists that have iPad Pros in their setup, but they also have access to vast studios, i.e. deadmau5: https://equipboard.com/items/apple-ipad-pro

    I don't dispute that you can make music on an iPad, likewise you can make music with a tape recorder and a microphone, or pots and pans, or a PlayStation and Music 2000. But comparing an iPad app to something like a fully featured DAW running on a fully fledged OS isn't something that's going to successfully trade punches any time soon, Apple Silicon and consolidation of architecture aside. Likewise, as a value proposition, it's not necessarily a logical one, unless you already happen to have an iPad.

    I think 13 year olds, if given the choice, would probably have xyz software and hardware. I think the simplicity of their tools are informed by lack of budget and necessity versus general desire, and whilst 13 year olds are the future, by the time the future gets here, it's likely going to be different again in terms of tools, what's available, what's competitively priced, and what's competitive in spec versus other tools and what competitors are using.

    Likewise, until pitch correction on a par with Auto-Tune and Melodyne comes to iPad OS (and it certainly isn't there yet :rolleyes::D), it's going to be a hard sell for most professionals to use as the heart of their workflow. Comparing Cubasis to Cubase for example is amusing. Last time I checked, Cubasis doesn't have comping, which is a pretty standard, pretty basic thing at this point. $60 Reaper license and a cheap laptop probably makes far more sense for most kids than an iPad Pro and lesser software.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
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  19. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,124
    And why is no one thinking Android????? I would love a trimmed down Maschine for Android that would let me jot down basics to transfer when able and I'm guessing there may be slightly more than +1 who would hope likewise.
     
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  20. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,230
    I'd settle for a port of the existing iMaschine app over to Android at this point. Just something to jot down ideas with. Would be ever so cool if they allowed direct sampling via microphone on the phone app to then later import into your user library or projects on the computer. Cubasis runs fine on Android, so the "aNdRoId iS No gOoD FoR MuSiC MaKiNg bEcAuSe oF ThE Os" argument no longer really holds any water as to why there isn't an app. Not expecting a full-fat experience, it is what it is, an accessory to the existing experience, ultimately.
     
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