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Bug Native Instruments support is failing miserably, can someone with Keyscape please test these?

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by basehead617, May 15, 2018.

  1. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    Hi all-

    Can someone with Keyscape please download these two projects and try the following in the latest version of Maschine:

    http://bh.polpo.org/KeyscapeBugTest2.zip

    1.
    Load the project called Test_Real_77_initialloadtest_2.mxprj
    Play it for about 10 seconds until you hear some sound.. you should hear some Keyscape output.

    2.
    Stop playback and load the other project, called Test_Real_76_keyscape_test_3_keyscapeonly.mxprj
    Play it..
    You should have no sound being produced from Keyscape in the 2nd project, despite a sound being loaded and notes triggering the instrument.

    3.
    Then, quit Maschine and start it up again, and now load the 2nd project first (Test_Real_76_keyscape_test_3_keyscapeonly.mxprj). It should work fine.

    Assuming you have the same issue as I do - Clearly either the Keyscape instrument or Maschine itself has a problem with initializing/deinitializing projects and both support teams are not giving a damn about it. [to be fair, a while ago the Spectrasonics guy said he was sending it to their devs but I doubt they cared]. The NI support, which took 1 month to respond to the initial ticket (yes 1 month), keeps wanting me to stay home from work and setup a remote support session where they control my computer, etc. There's nothing to remotely support, I sent them these projects.

    I've spent so much time coming up with a 100% reproducible (on my machine anyway) test case, after having tons of issues with 'missing' instruments loading projects, and they won't even attempt to reproduce it (both claiming they don't have the other software.. maybe they should think about that..)

    Thanks to anyone that can help!
     
  2. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,806
    OK, so I can confirm what you are saying that if you have a project open with Keyscape then load another project with Keyscape the sound does not work.

    Here is what I have found with this issue:

    If I open either project from scratch they both open and play fine and if I open either first it plays fine, then the second does not if I load it after the first one with Maschine open.

    I then did a test where I opened your projects and deleted the Keyscape instance then re-loaded keyscape directly from the Plugin menu (so not using the NKS files I created) and the same issue occurs.

    What I note when I load the second project is Keyscape appears to load very fast (or not even unload from memory) and it is not buffering the samples to memory. This suggests to me that when the second project is being loaded it is not initiating a load of the sample material. When you open Keyscape while the test plays you can see MIDI data is triggering but there is no volume output however if you then simply select the preset it will load the sound.

    It should be noted if you choose "File > New" before loading the second project then open the second one it works just fine so it seems Maschine needs to actually unload/reload Keyscape which it is not doing when you load one project after another.

    The issue I believe is a Maschine one as I have done the same test in Ableton live (since I don't actually use Maschine) just having a single track with Keyscape and saving 2 different projects. There is not an issue with Live so the issue is not suspected to be Keyscape, but Maschine.

    It’s worthy of a bug report because it should be solvable as it is a handling issue with Maschine and Keyscape but for your situation if you need to switch projects you should first choose "File > New" then open your next project which seems to work around the problem.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
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  3. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    You are awesome, thanks for checking on this with me.

    I hope a community person from NI can see this thread and pass it to the development team since I'm not getting anywhere with support.
     
  4. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,269
    Just because it works with Ableton does not mean it's an issue with Maschine, and plugins can work differently depending on the daw... and if you think about it why aren't other third party plugins in Maschine having the same issue?

    Regardless of where you think it's best to point fault it's generally best to log the issue with the plugin developer (or keyscape), so they can test it themselves. If the issue is with the plugin they can fix it, if the issue is Maschine they are in a better situation to log an issue with Native Instruments.
     
  5. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    As I stated I did send the bug to both companies and the projects to both companies.

    NI said they couldn't do anything with it because they didn't have Keyscape. Spectrasonics didn't say anything other than the support person passed it along to the devs (who probably will say they don't have Maschine)
     
  6. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,269
    Ask them to swap software.
    Isn't there a demo of the plugin?
     
  7. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,806
    No there is not.

    Well, yes, but you have to start looking at something.

    The fact it loads without issue in another DAW suggests logically (to me anyway) that the plugin itself should not be the issue. Sure, it could still be the plugin which is one reason I selected the words "I Believe" not "I know definitively". It could be just a combination of Keyscape + Maschine where Maschine doesn't have issues with other plugs and Keyscape has no issues with other DAWs. From what I can see (having actually sat down and done some tests to help the fellow user) the issue appears to be Maschine not unloading the plugin from memory as it switches projects and the plugin is not polling for the content. The preset name changes when you load the project but the content does not load. Ableton unloads everything from memory when loading another project which means it takes some more time but this kind of issue doesn't happen.... just what I believe is happening.

    Because not all plugins work the same way, not all combinations of software will work in the same manner. Luckily this issue doesn't affect me since I don't use Maschine anyway but all I can say is Keyscape has this issue with Maschine where it doesn't with other DAWs
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,269
    Right and you can also say other plugins don't have this issue with Maschine. So really no smoking gun. Who knows what's actually happening.

    I googled there appears to be a demo mode?
    https://support.spectrasonics.net/manual/Keyscape/11/en/topic/demo-mode
     
  9. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,806
    Hey, i'm just confirming there is an issue, If you see a demo and believe Maschine is not the issue then by all means man, download the demo and help figure things out. Not an interest to me to go any further than confirm that Keyscape does in fact have an issue (detailed) with Maschine software and not with other DAWs. I have Maschine Studio but it's a dust collector and apart from being used to develop stuff, I don't use Maschine at all so it's not a concern to me, just confirming a users problem.
     
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  10. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    If neither company is interested in figuring out if its their bug, despite me putting it on a platter for them, it says a lot about them.
     
  11. Frank P.

    Frank P. NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    320
    I have the same problem and I write to spectrasonics support today ...
     
  12. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    I re-opened the ticket with Spectrasonics with new info (that it's quite easy to repro on their own) this past week, but got no response.

    NI still waiting on me to schedule a live-support session where they control my machine and see I'm not bullshitting this.

    I don't blame companies' support for being wary since people generally have no idea what they're talking about most of the time, but I couldn't have been more explicit and clear that I know what I'm doing. They should trust but verify at a certain point.

    The fact that they need me to stay home from work for an hour-long support call in order to prove their bug is nuts. I'm busy, I'm crunching at work for the summer, go test it yourself, I've given you the car and the keys to the car!
     
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  13. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    Very slightly more helpful response from a different person @ NI (which makes me wonder if it's a dev and not the original support person):

    "Thank you for that information. We'll see what we can do regarding testing this issue, but we cannot make any promises this 3rd party VST issue can be resolved by us."

    It's possible someone will look into it at least... still radio silence from Spectrasonics after the initial thread, despite my follow-ups.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  14. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,269
    The buck stops with Spectrasonics. It's their product not working. If they find an issue with Maschine then they would contact Native Instruments.
     
  15. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    Update on this - I misread an email from NI recently that made it sound like they were going to try Keyscape/Omnisphere and repro the bug, but they did not. Got a final reply on the thread today that they 'don't have access' to the VSTi.

    Still no follow-up from Spectrasonics.

    Frank P. did you get a response about it?
     
  16. Dallon426

    Dallon426 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    394
    Yup. I just had an issue today with spitfire audio. The three free labs from them open in Cubase and do not open in maschine. I was chatting with tech support from spitfire and they said they would look into it. This is the first time I've had a problem with maschine not opening vst's. But these problems do exist.
     
  17. JesterMgee

    JesterMgee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,806
    There is also another issue I helped another user identify and confirm with Keyscape and Live. Basically if you map 2 layers of controls from keyscape to Live (or to KK within Live) then start switching presets it will crash Live. It's a Keyscape issue and Spectrasonics confirmed and said they will be working on a fix. Just need to keep contacting them so they know people are noticing bugs.

    Thread
    https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/keyscape-crashing-kk-ableton-inst-rack.331855/
     
  18. basehead617

    basehead617 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    312
    I assume they were able to test that because someone had Live already at the company... they don't seem to have Maschine..

    I want to start a new ticket with Spectrasonics now that NI has given up on this.