New overtone Steinway preset 2.10 for Kontakt 2.2.3

Discussion in 'AKOUSTIK PIANO' started by OlivierFRAPPIER, Oct 21, 2007.

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  1. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

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    155
    Hi,

    My dream become reality thanks to NI and Kontakt. The only sampler that have advanced script engine that can simulate
    real sympathetic resonance for Piano.

    Others samplers like Gigastudio even with the Imidi rules, can't do this. And even with IR.

    So i repeat it's a unofficial preset, that i've created for free
    to share my knowledge and i hope that others piano developpers will understand what is a real "sympathetic resonance"

    you can download here my unofficial "user preset" for the AKP Concertgrand

    download and copy it in the AKP "presets" dir.

    (...\Akoustic Piano Library\Presets\AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.08.nki)

    Download link :

    http://www.orpheos.fr/AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.08.nki

    updatedt (23/oct/2007)
    http://www.orpheos.fr/AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.10.nki

    It will be load/open only with Kontakt 2.2.3. (doesn't work in AKP gui)



    New features of this latest preset :

    Real Sympathetic resonance with overtones and repedalling overtones :

    1 ) New overtone realtime engine that no competitor have :


    Overtones are complex with repedalling :

    for example :

    Play pedal down in a real piano :

    keep the pedal down and play C4 and C5 staccato / release them quickly

    Keep always the pedal down and play siltently C3

    Keep C3 down and release the pedal (pedal up)

    you will hear (thanks to the undampered C3) the C4 and C5 half sustain resonance and overtones, even if the pedal is up.

    The next feature will work too with half sustainpedal…. Soon….

    But it’s already so real…..

    ->First overtones script with sustain samples morphing and combined with real sympathetic resonance up and down with repedalling.

    When you still held several keys (for example a Fminor chord), and you play others keys, you hear the begin of a sustain effect, as if the pedal is down.

    Why ? because the sympathetic resonance sound in the free dampers.

    If you have a lot of keys undampered the overtones sound different, depend on the number of keys undampered and the overtones rules verified.


    And the overtones still sound if you press pedal down/up several times.

    You can hear the overtones that the sound colour change in realtime :

    press silently a Fminor chord (C2 F2 Ab2 C3) before the middle ,

    held it, still held it while playing C4 staccato.

    Release C2 and after F2 and after Ab2 and after C3, the C4 overtone sound/coulour change in real time, (the pan. and the volume too)

    It's the most advanced multithreaded overtones script for Kontakt.

    It work only in Kontakt because i've add my own features and
    deleted some that i've found useless.

    it's completly rewritted/mapped. Nothing to do with official AKP version.

    for your pleasure....

    like it or don't like it...

    :)

    Olivier
     
  2. kap

    kap Forum Member

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    84
    Olivier,

    before even trying it out I like it already, just from your detailed, in-depth, heartwarming description.
    Thank you and keep up your good spirit, it is very seldom that a user of audio software is so much connected to an instrument like you are...

    best regards,
    karl.
     
  3. BurtaN

    BurtaN NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    369
    Thanks for your work!
    The new script sounds very great and it's even more realistic than the delivered presets of AKP, but I have got a problem. Is it normal that the sustain-effect will not decrease by time? When I play a note very load and wait till it is very silence, then press the sustain pedal, the resonance effect is as load as if I would have pressed the sustain pedal at the beginning, when the note was load.
    Is it just a problem of my settings?

    Greetings
    BurtaN
     
  4. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155

    Hi,

    i wanted to do like a real Piano (it decrease very slowly when you repedal while keys are down)

    but the value seems to be wrong.

    i will fix it today and post the fix (just a value problem inside the new script)
     
  5. Timursen

    Timursen Forum Member

    Messages:
    151
    Great work Oliver! I have demonstrated AKP and your own Kontakt Overtones set to a friend of mine who is not connected to Piano playing at all. He found yours the best-sounding right away.

    I did not dig into all aspects of AKP myself yet, but from what I've heard yet your Kontakt set sounds more organic and lively and less like a sample-automaton.
     
  6. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155
    Hi Burtan,

    http://www.orpheos.fr/AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.09.nki

    1) fix a C2 and C3 high velocity problem

    2) While you held a chord and you repedal several times, the sustaineffect come back with a different volume and attack (To 15 and 20 sec). It's decrease (but slowly like a real piano)

    and a audio demo in ogg format :

    http://www.orpheos.fr/AKP2.09_demo_with_Concert_Hall_conv.ogg
     
  7. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

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    155
    Thanks !

    :)
     
  8. Kinny

    Kinny NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    I hate to tell you Olivier, after all your good work, but these pianos I now find are about 10 cents sharp to A440. Perhaps that's closer to A442, but I find I have to take the tuning down 10 cents to sound right with everything.
     
  9. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

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    155
  10. visa tapani

    visa tapani Forum Member

    Messages:
    20
    Just found this beauty... great!

    A little anomaly though: in some voices- espcecially G3 it seems - there's a huge gap between velocities 40 & 41 (or somewhere thereabouts)...

    Otherwise really enjoyable instrument!
     
  11. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155

    i can fix that quickly can you tell me more about this :
    in G3 ? (my map : A0 to C8)

    in version 2.10 ?
     
  12. visa tapani

    visa tapani Forum Member

    Messages:
    20
    Hi again,
    sorry for the late reply, I was a bit busy for a couple of days and then forgot about this.

    Okay, I've now investigated further and have found other problems with velocity response as well.

    First of all, I'm indeed using version 2.10, loaded into Kontakt 3 and 3.01 as standalone and inside Cubase SX3 and EnergyXT. To me the mapping looks like A-1 to C7 in K3, so I'll point to notes according to this map (maybe you need to transpose an octave up, then).

    - In G3 and G#3 there seems to be a gap between velocities 40 and 41.

    - the response of B0 seems erratic. When going up, somewhere between 95 and 99 the perceived loudness suddenly goes down, and jumps up between 107 and 111.

    - A similar problem in C6 and C#6, when going up in velocities the perceived loudness seems to jump down somewhere between 40 and 44, then jump up again, and make a big jump between 95 and 99.

    - In B5, there's a jump somewhere between 95 and 99.

    - G#6 is also jumpy.

    - In the highest octaves (> ~E5) most of the notes seem to have a minor jump in the middle point.

    - C2 seems to have an irregular response.

    - Some minor anomalies in several notes (for example in E4 a minor jump between 107 and 111)

    Okay there are the ones I noticed with a relatively brief testing. My main method of testing was to make a couple of bars of repeated 16th notes and make a linear velocity ramp up in them, and then transposing this to each note. Then I made a constant velocity ramp up from C0 to C7 (and tested this with different velocity values) and noticed that the line doesn't sound smooth.
     
  13. visa tapani

    visa tapani Forum Member

    Messages:
    20
    One thing I forgot to point out. In general when just playing around with it I notice that the lower notes overpower the higher.

    For example, when you play C3 and C4 (remember that in my mapping C7 is the highest) in rapid succession repeatedly (what's this in english anyway, a trill?) with the same volume, C3 greatly dominates over C4. The midi velocity can be almost anything, but it's very audible if you try, say, 50. Or if you do this with velocity 20 and press down the sustain pedal, you can't really even hear the C4 at all!

    Also I find that the preset exaggerates dynamics in general a little bit, like played through an expander...
     
  14. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155
    choose the 75% dynamic in the script performance view menu.
     
  15. BurtaN

    BurtaN NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    369
    Sorry, Olivier that I reply so late. I tried the new version .10 but unfortunately I still have the problem that the resonance effect does not decreases with time. I can give demo If you need.
    Apart from that good work!

    BurtaN
     
  16. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155
    it decrease with time (around 20 sec of repedalling like a real Piano)

    slowly but it decrease :

    So, 2.11 will be out soon with all fix !
     
  17. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155
    Thanks :

    1) In G3 and G#3 there seems to be a gap between velocities 40 and 41. :

    fixed

    2)

    - the response of B0 seems erratic. When going up, somewhere between 95 and 99 the perceived loudness suddenly goes down, and jumps up between 107 and 111.

    fixed

    3)

    - the response of B0 seems erratic. When going up, somewhere between 95 and 99 the perceived loudness suddenly goes down, and jumps up between 107 and 111.


    fixed

    4)

    - In B5, there's a jump somewhere between 95 and 99.

    fixed

    5)

    - in- G#6 is also jumpy.

    fixed

    6 ) sustain effect not decreasing :

    no change -> it change bit slowly whith several repedalling -> it's a choice like my real Grand Schimmel

    download 2.11 here :

    http://www.orpheos.fr/AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.11.nki
     
  18. visa tapani

    visa tapani Forum Member

    Messages:
    20
    Thanks! Most of the anomalies with individual notes' velocity response seem to be gone. However, there's still the problem that the lower register overpowers the higher, especially when playing softly. I made an audio example to demonstrate this.

    It's basically a comparison between the velocity response of the Akoustic Piano default ConcertGrand patch (which I find quite natural) and that of AKPKT_Olivier_Steinway2.11.

    First there's a segment played through your patch where a high melody line is played on top of a low (C1-C2) pedal point. For accuracy I set fixed midi velocity of 30 for all the notes (both high melody and low pedalpoint). Then this same midi part is played through ConcertGrand. In your patch the high melody line drowns under the pedal.

    After this there is mechanical repetition of C3 and C4 in succession with fixed velocity of 20 first played through your patch, then through ConcertGrand. Then the same thing with fixed velocity of 40. The C4 is overpowered by C3 in you patch.

    Due to this I find it extremely difficult to actually play the patch...
     
  19. OlivierFRAPPIER

    OlivierFRAPPIER Forum Member

    Messages:
    155
    Hi,

    it's ok that C3 are more powerfull than C4.

    I've reproduced the real DB scaling of a grand Piano and
    real velocity reponse.

    Not a bug.

    This patch is for live playing like a pianist, for a real piano reponse, not for a static midi file or linear velocity.

    It work well with real MIDI Yamaha diskclavier.
     
  20. visa tapani

    visa tapani Forum Member

    Messages:
    20
    Well if you're happy with it then fine of course. Though as I said, due to this I find it almost impossible to play. I've never played a grand piano in my life that would have such a prominent volume difference between registers even though I'm of course aware that the higher notes are always quieter than the lower.

    It is exactly because a static midi file can be misleading that I provided the comparison to the default ConcertGrand patch in Akoustik piano -to have a standard of comparison. Do you think the ConcertGrand patch velocity scaling sounds unnatural then? Because it's evident that it's very different than you patch.

    I can try it with a Yamaha diskclavier at school, but I have a pretty good midi keyboard at home as well, and I find it absolutely impossible to play anything in pp with this patch.
     
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