New Preset Format

Discussion in 'KORE' started by a1mixman, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. digitalboy1

    digitalboy1 Account Suspended

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    299
    Part of the Dance

    I think that we know that...

    But we were once part of the dance....

    One could even say - " A core component of the choreography" :)

    It seems that NI are pretty good at making Maschines but I do feel that they have seriously underestimated the "human factor" here...
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  2. Klutch

    Klutch Forum Member

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    154
    I think I see what NI are doing. Look how close to a daw maschines program interface is. I think NI will eventually turn it into a daw the controller will be perfectly intergrated and NI will probably only support their own instruments. It will be one all inclusive unit. Everyone will want one because we can't lie NI really do make some top notch software/synths.
     
  3. digitalboy1

    digitalboy1 Account Suspended

    Messages:
    299
    NI Komplete Kontrol

    This is very close to the heart of the matter...

    It's Mate's "vision" to lock the software with the hardware...

    Only offering exclusive NI proprietary content will also be part of the package..

    But it's not conscription...We don't have to subscribe to their vision if we don't want to....

    I for one have just had a whole bunch of products removed from my NI account..

    After all - Darwin told us that "Our survival is dependant on our ability to adapt to change" :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
  4. theoryzero

    theoryzero NI Product Owner

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    234
    Normally I'd agree with you, and I hope that is this case in terms of the impact to workflow. However, there was another time that Kore users were advised not to upgrade. With Kore update 2.1.1 the engines of Absynth 5, Kontakt 4, and Guitar Rig 4 were integrated. Users of Kontakt 3 and Absynth 4 were advised that if they installed Kore 2.1.1 they would not be able to edit factory content of Kontakt 3 or Absynth 4.

    We don't know the extent of the effects of the planned updates. Perhaps the engine changes are severe enough that the new updates simply won't support the KSD format anymore. Keir specifically mentioned Absynth 5, FM8, and Massive...the only NI instruments that currently use the KSD format for their sounds. The other Komplete instruments use their own sound formats, like other third-party instruments, and the KSD serves as a wrapper around them as you mentioned.

    The upcoming Kore 2.1.3 update will not have the engines of the current instruments as they are TODAY, but rather the engines after the instruments are updated for the Maschine format. Why do I think this? If you look at the update status notes for Absynth 5, FM8, and Massive they all mention the instruments will be updated to support the new preset format for the Maschine browser and fixes for OSX 10.7 Lion compatability. Kore 2.1.3's update status also mentions it will be fixed for OSX 10.7 Lion. My guess it will need the latest engines (that break KSD compatability) in order to be fixed for use on OSX Lion.

    So, based on past history, I think that for whatever reason these engine updates will cause headaches for people that want to edit sounds in Kore. My hope is it's just a matter of it being like a third party instrument as you say, my previous prediction was certainly a worse if not worst case scenario.
    ---
    In the past, new versions of Komplete had been advertised as being "Kore ready" but it was actually a few weeks after release before the KSDs were available. IIRC, even Komplete 7 was a week or two after it was shipping before it had Kore 2 support. Komplete 4 or 5 seemed like a much longer wait from what I remember.

    My guess is the Maschine browser updates will be ready sometime in September. If the current status updates of the affected instruments are current, they are still in the development stage and have not yet entered beta testing or final testing. My guess is production on Komplete 8 packages has already started as you say and contain the currently available versions of the products (aside from Guitar Rig 5 and Kontakt 5 of course).
     
  5. nielsdolieslager

    nielsdolieslager NI Product Owner

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    2,120
    First possibility: must be correct. If you create a patch in a synth that doesn't use the ksd format, it doesn't go into Kore's library. If you load the synth, load the patch and save it as a ksd in Kore though, it will still be in the library, like a third party plugin. The same goes for presets create within Kore.
    ---
    Eh? From what plugins can you batch import? I know Kore has the function, but it didn't work for most plugins :)
     
  6. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,860
    Yeah but that was specifically because they needed to upgrade to the new versions (which was a paid update) and then they would be able to load them. I see no reason why you should not be able to save the state of any plugin as a ksd (except for really buggy ones)- unless they are planning to make these full updates needing a new version number - and its highly unlikely NI will make so radical a change that it would not be possible to treat them as you would a third party plugin (although I agree they are not doing a good job of reassuring us).

    My point above was assuming someone having taken the plunge and decided to overwrite the engine plugins with the new versions - I think in most cases it would still be best to be cautious about that as NI are advising but it sucks that we should have to.
    ---
    It works for any plugin that supports the VST standard way of handling presets - generally that means them using the FXB bank format or something that adheres to the same standards (for example Reaktor snapshots can be imported even though they are not in FXB format so they must be similar enough, so can presets from Tone2 Firebird). The problem is so many plugins these days use a proprietary format of their own so there's no way for NI to keep up with that. NI didn't make it easier though with some older plugins that do support FXB format by not adding a bank loader for FXB's (so you could import patches but only from the factory bank) but most modern plugins load them themselves.
     
  7. kb123

    kb123 NI Product Owner

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    1,224
    This is a very good point. The update status for the various options (if accurate) is showing development at the moment, so whats being shipped out on the new Komplete DVD's for the synths. If, as shipped, the synths support kore and it requires an update to push them over to Maschine, then there is, by definition, a window for NI to do something about this mess.

    Keir can you confirm if this is a possibility?
     
  8. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

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    5,860
    So any more clarification? I think it is obvious that the new versions will work in Kore as well as any third party plugin. The big question is what would happen if we needed to update the internal engine versions, say to fix a bug or access any improved functionality. Given that they no longer support ksd format would any patch that uses one of the new versions still work if we did update them? And if not are NI going to provide "Kore only" updaters so we don't fall behind in terms of bug fixes at least? Is this part of what is planned in the "compatibility" updates promised later this year?

    Also we still need to know what happens when the new version updates the presets to the new format since Kore relies on those too? We would hope the ksd versions are not touched.
     
  9. kb123

    kb123 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,224
    The fact that NI decline to clarify what is on the face of it a simple enough scenario leads me to the conclusion that there are further issues under the hood that we are as yet unaware of. This whole thing becomes more stupid by the minute.

    In the absence of a suitable response from NI, I am preparing a Kore computer that will keep associated synths at a kore compatible point. What else can I do to try and keep my kore system in the face of a stone wall of silence
     
  10. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,070
    Well, I cannot do that. Every piece of equipment adds heat and introduces the chance for failure. More heat would not be good in my studio. And we're all trying to reduce electricity usage anyway, aren't we?

    Furthermore, that would put on me the responsibility and risk of maintaining a whole 'nother PC, including hardware (power supply, motherboard, hard drive) that can and will eventually fail, the OS and related updates, plus antivirus and more.

    Nope, I have to make it work on my existing rig. If I add a PC, it would be a laptop to allow me to go mobile. But then I would want all my stuff on it. A specialty rig just for "some" of my sounds? Out of the question.
     
  11. kb123

    kb123 NI Product Owner

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    1,224
    The problem is that we are not being given enough information to make the best informed decisions. Setting up a separate computer with 20k ksd's associated synths - not just NI's is a lot of work and expense. But, I don't see any other alternative at the moment.

    I am without the words to describe how upset and angry I am with NI on this. A few simple explanations could save everyone a lot of time, and stop me for one having to go through every possible combination of "what if's" to make sure I am covered into the future.

    I really don't want to turn into Mr Angry, but my patience is being tested to the limits.


    We see enough forum input from NI product specialists for Maschine and Guitar Rig. Where is the Kore product specialist? Why is that person not answering our questions?
     
  12. clementshawes

    clementshawes Forum Member

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    515
    Their position was suddenly discontinued and there'll be no more mention of their existence from now on. All record of their existence has been wiped from the site.
    Or something like that...
     
  13. Keir @ NI

    Keir @ NI Community, man NI Team

    Messages:
    2,650
    Well, thanks very much for your patience in the meanwhile. With the release of Komplete I've got my hands full, but don't worry, getting more detail to you guys is very much a priority for me.

    Rather than waiting around on here, I can drop you an email once some more information is posted if you'd prefer.
     
  14. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,070
    Thanks Keir, but man oh man, you guys could really reduce our stress and give us something to go on by just providing the information.

    It's obvious that an awful lot of thought and planning and work has gone into Komplete 8. The damned thing has been developed and coded and beta tested and has probably already gone to manufacturing, for crying out loud. The answers should definitely already be known.

    Native Instruments has several hundred to several thousand Kore users out here who cannot even consider pre-ordering Komplete 8 until we get some technical answers. This should be considered a serious marketing problem at all levels of Native Instruments.

    Until we get that information, we cannot even be considered to be "possible customers" for K8. Help us please.
     
  15. robertroff

    robertroff NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    636
    I don't see what the big issue is for NI. The Kore internal engines have always been separate. Those get updated along with Kore. And since Kore has been promised to be updated to 64 bit (and Lion compatible), it follows that the internal engines will be updated at that time. Upgrading the individual plug-in versions has never affected Kore's internal plug-ins. So I'm gathering that the issue is the shared sounds will change, as in it will be a new preset format that works with Maschine. Well it would be foolish for them to overwrite the old KSDs, they wouldn't do that would they? Even if they want to keep the KSD format, wouldn't they at the very least create different folders? One for the Koresounds and one for the individual plug-in sounds (used by Maschine).

    I'd actually like to have new versions of Massive and FM8 which are seen as separate by Kore, then I could use automap with them, which I can't now because Kore won't see the individual versions, just the internal ones.
     
  16. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,070
    Well, it's not always as easy as that.

    I just updated my engines in Kore and now I occasionally get vst bridge crashes in Cubase 64 bit. Never happened before. This is the risk when the engines and the hardware/host software were not designed, coded, and tested to work together.
     
  17. taoyoyo

    taoyoyo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,603
    I would really like clarification of what the effect of these updates will be to an owner of both Kore and Maschine.

    I personally cannot justify the expense of a second computer to quarantine and preserve Kore if updates for Komplete and Maschine will conflict with Kore on a single computer and will probably have to remove and sell Kore if this is going to be a big problem as Maschine is the more essential to my workflow setup.

    Can it be so troublesome to cut to the chase and let us all know exactly what the score is? NI must know what the ramifications around the corner are.
     
  18. robertroff

    robertroff NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    636
    Exactly my point. The Kore internal engines were never supposed to be replaced by the most recent versions of the individual instruments. They are supposed to get updated when Kore gets an update. I'll admit that I have at times copied in the most recent version of one of them if there was something I wanted from a new version, but it's a bit of a hack. If NI tells us that Kore will be updated to 64bit, then we know the internal plug-ins will have to be updated as well. So I think we just wait for Kore to be updated rather than replacing them with the newest versions.
     
  19. zeoka

    zeoka NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    669
    In theory koresound doesn't care about preset format of its own plugz.
    If i open a massive thread sound with massive 1.3 updated engine in kore
    Why will not work ?
    Have you an idea ?
     
  20. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,860
    The problem as I see it is that if I save a ksd of a sound I make with most plugins Kore is saving the plugin state of the plugin (probably in a similar fashion to how any host saves the plugin state of a plugin in a saved project so it reopens on the same settings) so yes the plugin's own preset format is irrelevant.

    However for Massive, Absynth, and FM8 ksd was their native format so if I load a ksd from Massive Threat (to use your example) in the current version it loads fine but if I load the same ksd in the new version we don't know how it will treat it - maybe it will give us an error message saying it no longer loads that format, maybe it will try and convert it to Maschine format? Maybe it will load fine and we can stop worrying but until NI clear this up we just don't know.