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NI is going to subscribtion based payment model. What do you think?

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Tomess, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. RoC1909

    RoC1909 New Member

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    I got some great deals on a few Waves plug-ins over the holiday season...but I spent more at Plugin Alliance :) (Brainworx Digital, Meter, Control, Unfiltered Audio Sandman Pro, and Maag EQ2)
     
  2. GameOfDrones

    GameOfDrones New Member

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    And I didn't say you said it would lol. I was just making a statement about the reality and probably should have quoted ntula. Anyway, as long as the internet exists and stays like it is, and as long as private ftps stay active, piracy will always be prevalent-and so what if it is? Not accusing anybody of anything, but there are a plethora of professionals using pirated software-it's common knowledge if you work with these people. That being said, they also have spent 30-50 grand on legit software-much like myself. And another fact is that in many cases, the pirated software actually works better than the legit versions. Piracy is not the problem, and it never was. Piracy actually helps in the long run, and companies should always be thinking about the long run, if they wanna stay in business that is.
     
  3. Mac Tinitus

    Mac Tinitus NI Product Owner

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    I get this .. but It’s me a way to easy to legitimize piracy . If think all this way ..company’s can close the doors ..don’t can see “the long run” . Sure it will ever exist piracy .. but that ever means company’s spend a lot in copy protection what makes the price up, make things complicated, for all who pay . little company’s burn down before they can start . -this fight company’s sadly never can win .But piracy is what it is -theft .Privat Nobody wants stuff get stolen -so please not sounds like it’s normal .
     
  4. GameOfDrones

    GameOfDrones New Member

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    Piracy is such a bloated word when it comes to this topic lol. No one is getting rich offering aspiring musicians, songwriters, producers, engineers software to explore ideas with. Warez sites are only used by idiots nowadays so where are these 'pirates' hiding out-making all this money? Can anyone point me to them, an Instagram of them chillin in their 5 million dollar mansion countin bills?. Guess what- ain't happening because they don't crack software for money. The groups who make the software available put notes in their releases to tell you to buy the software if you make money from it. They believe we the user have the right to try software before we buy it, and this may have something to do with the ridiculous pricing of some softwares...they believe they are being righteous. This has always been their philosophy. The point is, the only ones really making money are the software developers. I believe that most aspiring artists, producers and engineers have a conscience and will buy the software when they can. People like Kanye West (like D-One mentioned) should be ashamed of themselves for using cracked anything, especially Serum since it's priced very fairly.
     
  5. Tomess

    Tomess NI Product Owner

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    Speaking for myselfe, i also do not believe that piracy is the reason NI is starting to go the subscribtion way. It's all about getting those investments back. After my blood pressure came down, i've rewatched the video. The CEO talks about adobe when it comes to this toppic. What he kind of forgot (or just don't talk about) is that there is no real alternative for programs like After FX oder InDesign afaik. So of course the people take the bitter pill an go for subscribtion. But in the audio sector, there are plenty of alternatives. I really hope that the people will teach NI a lesson by not buying the subscribtion plan...that's the only way to prevent this. But i'm not naive, people are also lazy and afraid of switching to another platform...well...i am lol!:rolleyes:
     
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  6. Mystic38

    Mystic38 NI Product Owner

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    2,281
    This is the big one.. adobe mostly has a captive market with no alternative..
    This is not a luxury NI has, particularly as i suspect we all have at least 5 or 6 other ways to make, produce, record or otherwise have adequate enjoyment from our music.
    Maschine is simply not a candidate for a subscription model as NI has a long way to go before even our current levels of investment could be considered worthwhile.

    However, The one place where NI could probably make subscription stick is with Komplete.... after all, once you have made any track with a VST, you cannot lose that instrument..hence you become captive market, and quite frankly at $10/month i suspect a bunch of people would sign up for komplete ultimate on subscription...

    the big issue with the subscription model is what happens after you cancel the subscription.. in the case of lightroom (adobe) after you cancel a subscription then you lose the ability to edit the photos.. no matter how long you subscribe.. so while $10/mo seems fair, this clearly gets to be a pricey option over time.. so i think the important customer focused issue is actually "what happens when i stop subscription"..

    if for example, after 12, or 24, or 36mo you get to keep a permanent license (and simply no further updates) then it may swim and be seen as fair, however, in the case of adobe, while they are drowning in cash from this move, the level of customer antipathy they have generated is not good for the long run.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,640
    Depending on your usage there are alternatives to both InDesign and After FX (possibly arguably more so than for Photoshop) but whether they are as suitable depends on a number of factors.

    I've only just looked into the pricing plans for Adobe products and whilst at first they don't seem so bad they really aren't that good unless you regularly use most of the full creative suite professionally. In nearly all cases it would be costing the user more than buying the product if they didn't upgrade every year. It's arguable that far from 'democratising' usage of their apps, they have forced 'captive' users to pay more over time than they would have. And if Adobe are bad check out Autodesk..or rather don't because no likes to see tears.

    The only way Daniel can be believed to be speaking honestly when he talks about making tools available to more people is to have a very affordable pricing structure in mind... one far better than Adobes... and it would still have to be optional not to alienate a large percentage of the user base and not be be seen as merely squeezing as much as possible out of assests.
     
  8. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    I agree there are a lot more alternatives in the Audio world, at least for DAW's, plugins and instruments, for dedicated controllers not so much, unfortunately... Even so, Musicians seem to be more likely to change their software if they're not happy than photografers, designers etc...

    Maybe Adobe was able to get away with subscription-only because there are millions of big companies that use their products for their employees, editors, designers, etc have to use the same software multiple so people can work on the same projects. If there are 30 computers in a company that's 30 licenses... Unlike home users, they have no other option but to have legit software and go with whatever decisions Adobe makes, they cant say "Hey now all photographers are going to work with an alternative photo editing software" this gives Adobe a power that NI doesn't have.
     
  9. Mr. RecordBot

    Mr. RecordBot NI Product Owner

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    Someone had the same thought as I 2 pages before.. You don't go for "Subscription" as a company because "it's better for everyone". Just imagine a regular company:
    1.) Company sells product x for $100.
    2.) Company has to pay production cost, human resources, support, electricity, taxes, marketing,.. <- regular, recurring cost
    3.) Company wants to generate profit

    The Company has to generate enough cashflow via 1.) for 2.) and 3.) to happen. Their whole business, production pipeline, research, support etc. has been designed to work like this. Basic capitalism. If the Company is older than like 3 years and not bankrupt, you can assume that they already established this exact form of business successfully.

    4.) The company now gives away (leases, rent-to-own, whatever) their product for $5 / month

    Why would the company want to trade:
    1.) <- a successfully on-going assumably much bigger cashflow
    for 4.) <- a much smaller cashflow?

    The answer they will give you: It's more predictable.

    The true answer: They expect or already witness 1.) is subsiding.

    My prediction: We will see (or maybe not, depending on info policies) a lot of people lose their jobs at NI in the next 12-24 month.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. toneyrome

    toneyrome NI Product Owner

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    This whole thread is hilarious. Either its a good deal or its not. No one would buy anything from NI if it wasn't a good deal for them. This isn't one sided.
     
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  11. OhulahanBass

    OhulahanBass NI Product Owner

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    Maybe it will be like Bitwig and be an update subscription. Seems a real bummer still unless updates and features benefit drastically. I will not be excited if there is a background program running and internet connections required. I would probably phase Maschine & Komplete out over time if this new model sucks.

    In the meantime, I will be hesitant to buy any NI products until the future model is revealed and proven effective.

    This thread is bumming me out.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Mr. RecordBot

    Mr. RecordBot NI Product Owner

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    210
    I wouldn't buy again from NI. I didn't know before that it's not a good deal, I fell for the marketing. All of their products are dated and hilariously overpriced in my opinion. Maybe that is their real problem.

    NI should hire more coders, modernize their products, let go of that "mixed bag" Komplete, make more reasonable prices. Does NI ever sell Komplete Ultimate outside of a sale?

    Make a Mikro Mk3 with one of that nice color screens and an USB audio interface, make it a competition to other audio interfaces. Bring Maschine to the state that it is actually a DAW, even if it's a not a full-featured DAW. My goodness, two hobby-coders could add a full sequencer and VST3 support to such a product in less than 3 month. What are they doing at NI? I could understand it at Cakewalk, cause they had way more serious problems, Sonar was at least 10 years back with their code, at least so it seamed and people in their forums confirmed this. I can't understand it at the case of NI.

    Then Reaktor: It crashes on like every second computer. NI could save a lot of money for support if they tested and fixed their products. And Reaktor is not even that great, there are a lot of similar products now that are better, cheaper, sound better, are more user friendly, have better CPU performance... And a good amount of these competition products, be it DAWs or VSTs are made by only a few people. The main guy behind Falcon is like 18 years old. VPS Anvenger is made by 1 coder, who constantly adds features that the community asks for. Reaper was started by 1 guy... the list goes on like this.

    NI expects to sell off their dated stuff forever, well good luck with that, whatever price or subscription model.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    1,640
    Just curious but does anyone know of a software that has gone subscription only and actually garnered praise for doing so?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. toneyrome

    toneyrome NI Product Owner

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    Thats how it works. If a product sucks don't buy it. If this subscription rumour turns out to be true NI will offer something of value or no one would buy it.
     
  15. OhulahanBass

    OhulahanBass NI Product Owner

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    That would be a huge mood killer if say Reaktor fell out of subscription before you realized it. I'm imagining sitting down in the mood to make music, start jamming a beat, a bassline, then I open up Reaktor to find out I need to update my payment before I can use it. That would be a mood killer.

    On the other hand, I have considered buying Symphony Series instruments for a particular project, however, I could not justify the cost for something I may not use again and cost more than what I was getting paid for the project. For this situation I would welcome the sub model with 2 big Ifs:

    1) Maschine and other core instruments could be owned with updates outside the sub model
    2) The subscription price is reasonable

    If the details of the sub model don't tickle me the right way I will probably pick up a used MPC Live or Push and see how I get along with those products.
     
  16. rulgert ghostalker

    rulgert ghostalker NI Product Owner

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    whatever it is; in the end, i want to own my products ( concerning strictly my own personal use of any said owned products ), but yeah, i don't want to be a slave to the connection because i can't afford to upgrade,( throw my old rig in the garbage? and start building a new one ? ), the high performance hardware, at the rate required to stay online with my studio....

    like if i was going to rebuild for Win 10 64bit i would be discarding a system that is not even 5 years old that cost me almost 3 grand, and dropping another $4,000... So t's not just the cost of the subscription that would have me running away screaming
     
  17. OhulahanBass

    OhulahanBass NI Product Owner

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    I think everyone understands this. Your comment doesn't provide any comfort or new info though. I love my Maschine & Komplete setup right now, currently, it is unclear if the sub model will affect it.

    The presenter clearly stated that they have begun moving toward a sub model. It is not clear that it will be a good thing, a forced thing or a more expensive for owners of Komplete and Maschine thing. It could turn out to be terrible, fine or awesome. Lets all hope for AWESOME!
     
  18. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    6,849
    Adobe got a ton of hate for it, it still does, but at the end of the day, it didn't seem hurt their business one tiny bit.

    For audio AFAIK every software that has a subscriptions plans also has a buy-full option.
     
  19. Spekwerk

    Spekwerk NI Product Owner

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    A couple thoughts.

    1) I've seen in a few places comments like "wouldn't it be terrible if I went to use X and the subscription had expired and I couldn't use it" - That's not how subscriptions work. It's called a subscription because it automatically bills you. If you have to manually remember to pay it each month, that's a monthly bill, not a subscription.

    2) If this happens, I do hope it rolls out at least similar to Adobe. I purchased Photoshop CS3 many years ago, and Lightroom 5 a few years more recently. Those software packages still work. Do I have all of the new features? No. But what I bought still works. If I want to upgrade to the latest versions, I have the option to subscribe to Adobe's Creative Cloud. Or not. As of yet, I have not.

    Personally, I hope this doesn't happen. Adobe works as a subscription, in my opinion, because it was expensive. Photoshop alone cost $600+ for a single license. Want InDesign? Illustrator? Dreamweaver? Premier? After Effects? Audition? All hundreds of dollars more. The CS6 Master Collection cost nearly $8,000. Now you can get them ALL for $50/mo. It would take you 13 years at $50/mo to pay $8,000, but you're getting up to date software the entire time. Definitely a good value there.

    We don't know how much Maschine costs because NI doesn't sell it stand alone. But, if you can get the software AND a ridiculously nice hardware controller for $600? I don't know, I wouldn't spend more than $10/mo on it, and I'd expect the cost of the controller to come down a lot too. At $10/mo, it would take 5 years to pay $600, by which time you might want a new controller. If they charge $600 for the controller AND $10/mo for the software, they're essentially double-dipping over that 5 year period, if you still buy a new controller every 5 years.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. ntula

    ntula NI Product Owner

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    2,158
    i am satisfied with the adobe photoshop lightroom subscrtption,.... they offer $1300 of software that averages about 150 a year for upgrades for 10 to 20 dollars a month depending on cloud storage size. .. i own a photoshop, illustrator and dreamweaver license from a couple versions back so i know how expensive the upgrade go round was.. so yes, for the photoshop one, adobe gets praise. free software and cloud stprage, you just have to cover the updates that you have to do anyway on the mac side... adobe can offer it so low because they make it back in bulk by offering it so low. they are also very relaxed on the subscription.


    i still use the earlier versions on my desktop, but on the laptop i use the cc one. the cloud like is nice becuae you can work on things and hot have to carry an extra hard drive wth you


    you cannot do this with audio because it has to run in real time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018