Not convinced yet...

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by ridebest, Jun 15, 2007.

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  1. ridebest

    ridebest New Member

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    What does traktor skratch offer you guys that makes it more appealing than the good old tried and tested? Is there no comfort in knowing that when you rock up to play a set that the cdjs wont glitch and the tt's wont crash?

    I am an owner and user of Traktor Scratch and I'm in the middle of converting. I guess you could say that this morning when setting up my AKAI MPD24 I reached a turning point. Why go to all this effort? I sat there thinking of controller configs. that would allow me to transfer my skills onto traktor. You see I'm not a next track next dj, I'm more of a mixologist who likes to turn a song on it's head, loop it, tweak it, stutter it, effect it and filter it. I can sense that traktor is more capable than other setups but how do you intend to make it your own?

    So far traktor shows promise but is it the tool to take my skills to the next level or is it just a rearrangement of tools already available to me on my tt's cdj's and mixer without the stress of computer falibility?

    Discuss....

    Dave.
     
  2. AudioRapture

    AudioRapture NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,892
    Just by using beatgrids and master tempo (not to be confused with the CDJ's master tempo, which Traktor calls key lock) you will have a winner. you'll have tons of time tweaking the mix instead of worrying about the perfect sync.

    To make it all yours, you have to customize the hotkeys, get a MIDI controller that *works for you* and assign the MIDI controls to your liking.
     
  3. ridebest

    ridebest New Member

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    12
    wow great response

    Ok so not exactly the response I expected.

    Good call on the beatgrids. I have started to delve into the world of beatgrids and can see the attraction. Kind of takes the organic nature out of mixing in some ways but it does add time for fun.

    I only just figured out today that I can use the send effects on my vinyl.... Does everyone else realise this? Am I just a douche?

    Would be nice to have instant reverse like a cdj not a slow and reverse. It ruins the beatmatch if you are doing it in a mix.

    Do any of you actually want to discuss the use of traktor or just troubleshoot your benign teething problems. It shocks me that someone can't connect their audio 8. Seems like a bunch of technologically challenged dj's. Having said that I still can't get traktor to stop f&*king clicking and popping!

    So how does everyone use Traktor? How have you configured your midi controllers and what do you miss most when you have to go back to real vinyl or cd mixing?

    Anyway.. replies from real dj's using this in the field would be awesom!

    Dave out.
     
  4. crucial d

    crucial d NI Product Owner

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    1,719
    check your latency

    Dude, people will discuss with you if you drop the supercilious attitude. You say you have clicks & pops but you don't list your system specs. If you do, someone here can potentially advise you on how to eliminate them...

    First thing I would suggest without knowing what hardware you have is to raise your latency setting. you may then find that you have a perfectly running setup.

    TS is designed for Turntablist & hip hop DJ's first & foremost. It sounds to me that you should more be looking at Traktor Studio 3.2 as it currently offers a lot more than TS. Plus when the 3.3 update comes out in August you will have the most powerful DJ-ing kit on the planet.

    Just my .02c
     
  5. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    26,765
    i'm using the nuo4 mixer in combination with my 1210s, which comforts me the most.

    i like most on TS that there are several concepts that let you stay on the decks ALTHOUGH you're using a computer. i dont like the computer to be more than my record bag and maybe a computing slave, i'm a DJ and want to perform on my and play with my decks! ;)
     
  6. ridebest

    ridebest New Member

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    12
    yeah well i deserved that

    Ok maybe i was being a little critical. :eek:

    I have an acer aspire dual core intel 1.83 with a gig of ram. I have optimized it heavily and am running xp pro sp2.

    latency is set to 4ms at the hardware end.

    Maybe traktor should run a clock speed check to suggest a latency setting. I assumed my processor was fastish but it seems to be lacking the neccesary balls.

    An audio engineer friend of mine tells me that 2ms latency is ridiculously low and no laptop on earth would handle such a small latency. Anyway....

    Getting a dual core macbook soon so hopefully that will fix my problems!

    Dave.
     
  7. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    Clock speed has little to do with latency. You can have the fastest computer available and it will underrun if it has something getting in the way of the DVS service or the interface I/O.

    The lowest in/out latency possible for the A8DJ is around 9ms. It even says this in the driver applet. Stop thinking there is any correlation between the driver settings and your ACTUAL DVS latency. The only way you're goijng to get a DVS latency under 8ms is by buying Mixvibes AND a $1000 RME soundcard - anything less and you're on par with all the other DVS systems out there.

    I recommend you try running the DPC latency checker and check your computer's performance durring different processes.

    http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

    Run it while idle, under normal use, durring DVS operation, etc. See where the problems are. It gives you a place to start.

    Also, what optimizations have you tried?
     
  8. djneural

    djneural NI Product Owner

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    130
    For instant-reverse, I use the beatmaster FX, it can do that but it's a loop-reverse.

    I agree that reverse should be instant anyway. It's currently unusable for a house mix.
     
  9. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

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    757
    8ms or less: SSL offers a latency of 8ms. Thats the whole i/o latency of the DVS. TS's complete i/o latency is in the range of twice as high at best.

    I just want to point that out again...

    ASIO latency is something different.
     
  10. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    SSL's DVS processing time is in the 2-3ms ballpark. Add this to the I/O latency of the SL-1 interface (roughly 5ms) gives you a total "DVS latency" of around 8ms**. Mixvibes has a 1ms DVS processing time. Add that to the I/O latency of something like an RME interface (2ms or so) and you have a total DVS latency of around 4ms. But you've also spent around $1400 USD for your setup.


    **Note that these measurements were taken with the lowest driver settings possible. All the latency measurements I've taken for other systems (FS2, Torq, and Traktor Scratch) were taken with the same lowest possible settings. These settings may or may not be realistic on your particular system.
     
  11. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    I don't think this is correct. The DVS processing time from SSL is 1ms, all the other stuff is determined by I/O (speak USB). When you us Mixvibes and not use USB, you can achieve a considerably lower latency as you outlined. BTW, FS2 also could have had a lower latency (Firewire has a shorter bus cycle) - but they screwed it.

    So concerning latency the choice of USB(2) of TS was not the best choice. However, there seem to be other things not done well enough - otherwise TS would also have a latency in the category determined by the USB I/O.

    Correct me if I am b/s'ing.
     
  12. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    SSL's DVS processing takes longer than 1ms. Unfortunately, I'm not able to easily demonstrate and then show the I/O latency of the SL-1 (or do a Rightmark on it for that matter). This is because (a) I only have occasional access to SSL, ands (b) because those tools require a standard driver. Using the Centrance latency app and the beta ASIO driver for the SL-1 gives a number that doesn't represent the actual performacne of the unit with SSL (it's MUCH higher).
     
  13. yagru

    yagru Forum Member

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    78
    From what Ive read, the serato peeps said its processing time is 1.5 ms.

    Bideaway, does anyone even use mixvibes? Ive never seen it in action anywhere.
     
  14. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    What do you base that statement on?
     
  15. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

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    870
    Research I've seen the results of from 2 different companies. I'm still trying to come up with a method that a normal user can easily reproduce, but using the SL-1 ASIO driver to do those tests would be unfair and not representative of SSL's ACTUAL performance.

    Likewise, havent been able to publish a Rightmark on the SL-1 because the Rightmark app doesn't recognise the SL-1. I have run my own tests using a Goldline RTA from work and have an idea of the audio quality of the SL-1, but won't publish the results because not everyone has access to a hardware RTA.
     
  16. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    What do you mean? I can't follow you.

    Obviously we are not talking about ASIO, let's ignore that completely.
     
  17. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    Companies test / reverse engineer competitor's products extensively. I've spoken to people that have shared part of this information with me. I have no reason to disbelieve either party.
     
  18. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    Incidentally and chucking this into the equation and may help relax some of the intensity towards latency: although a low latency is nice to have, putting your computer under stress trying to get 6m/s or lower is sort of crazy when were talking about laptops in general.

    The human ear cannot hear any waveform delay below 35ms ....period.

    I think the latency issue is way blown out of context, I'd rather concentrate on setting up a sample accurate beatgrid and in reply to Ridebest, the Beatjump feature is absolutlely priceless, assign your beatjumps to Hotkeys and you can remix to your hearts content.
     
  19. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I used to think this too. And it's partially true, but we're not talking about just HEARING the latency. A DVS is a system that you participate in physically. It's very similar to playing an instrument. And the effect of latency has been researched by a good number of trusted entities. A human can FEEL single digit differences in latency. A good whitepaper on the subject was done by Centrance...

    http://www.centrance.com/about/tr/Latency.pdf

    The cool thing is that it's not very hard to experiment and verify these results yourself using a digital delay and headphones.
     
  20. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    Latency in computer systems is something I have worked with and tried to combat daily, over the last 13 yrs producing EDM, using a keyboard and soft synths setup since their inception.

    Having used Hardware/Software keyboard A/B setups as a comparison and in doing so have came to the conclusion as have many producers/musicians I have worked with that there is no discernible or audible difference from contact to output at approx 20 m/s or
    below.

    A setting which I am happy to stick my neck out and say that I nor many musicians cant "feel" or hear in terms of useabilty or noticeable artifacts.

    But this is only the latency in using a keyboard/soundcard setup, to which I am very familiar with, with regards to midi note triggering from contact on the keyboard to input on the screen.this is something I've spent doing so daily for years,a system i think far more accurate than headphones/cans as a testbed, and I find it difficult to agree that anything in single digits is discernible to the human ear or to human touch. I really dont think we as humans have a single digit sensitivity, let alone with regards to TS.

    But this is only my opinion and tested with a Keyboard as a contact source, visually with regards to midi, and aurally with my ears........maybe Im just getting older, and other people can feel the difference, I generally think its maybe too subjective to ever have a definitive answer, but Im happy to work with any computer system in a professional capacity as long as the latency is below 20ms. thats what I find is a comfortable and allowable latency threshold.

    and Im not trying to disagree with ya, just my opionion
     
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