Notes on KOMPLETE 8 for users of KORE 2 / KORE 2 PLAYER

Re: AU version of Absynth, FM8 and Massive.

it seems that Mac owners - i am one- can load Massive 1.3.0, Absynth 5.1.0, and FM8 1.2.0 into Kore 2.1.3, if they choose AU Plugins in Kore's Browser.

moreover, edited patches using the above plugins can be successfully saved as Kore ksds.

to be honest, i would prefer to use the VST versions anyway, but more importantly Windows users should also be able to use VST version of the above updates.

so my question is:

Will the final Kore update allow users - Mac and PC - to load the updated versions of Absynth, 5.1.0, FM8 1.2.0 and Massive 1.3.0 and save edited patches as Kore ksds?

another question:

will the Kore Player be updated?

at the moment that is still 2.1.2 from exactly one year ago.

btw, if the updates are not seen in your Service Centre, they are definitely there in the Updates area in the NI Website.

sowari

 

Just that the koresound would be an instance of Massive inside an instance of Bidule (or Wusik VM which i prefer for simple things as it even looks like part of kore). So you would have to make a template to control it inside its subhost and if you wanted all the new sounds in the library you would then have to save them all as koresounds using that template.

Or not bother - personally it's not worth it - the new updates offer us nothing and I would rather lobby for a fix and in the meantime for NI to give all Komplete 8 owners who have Kore access to the updated koresounds which we know they already have anyway.

 

This phrasing in the knowledge base is pretty confusing. The scenario described doesn't involve loading Massive as a VST plugin (at least by any of the terminology used until now by NI), but as an integrated engine.

If it were loading a VST plugin, then it would load the VST plugin, not the integrated engine...

And -- back to my favourite topic -- what about Pro Tools compatibility under Windows? Keir? Please?

 

Sowari,
Not sure what you mean by "save edited patches as .ksd's." Does that mean you were able to open the Maschine format presets then save them as .ksds?
---

Oh I see, it's not Massive inside Kore inside Bidule
it's Massive inside Bidule inside Kore.

 

Thanks sowari - so if it can be fixed to work with the AU why not the VST versions? If it is a case of a clash with the internal engines then add back/fix ksd saving (as has been done for the AU it seems) and there would no longer be a problem even if we had to update the internal engines to the new versions so they would show up in the plugin list.

And then when Massive 2 is out (etc) hopefully this would no longer be an issue anyway and it could just load in kore and function like a third party plugin.
---

Yep - like a Russian Doll

 

what a mess.

To summarize:

we are NOT able to instantiate Massive 1.3, FM8 1.2 and Absynth 5.1 in Kore as
whenever we instantiate Massive, FM8 and Absynth, the engine version is used, which is the K7 version.

If we use a workaround and replace the engine versions with the K8 versions, existent KoreSounds cannot be loaded, as the K8 versions won't load settings (unclear)

If we use a workaround and replace the engine versions with the K8 versions, new KoreSounds cannot be created, as the K8 versions won't save their state within Kore.

Right?

Thus, presets made with K8 versions can never be used in, or as KoreSound.

Then, Kore can use each and every VST2.x plugin on the market, despite NI's current plugin versions. As presets will be made for current plug versions, Kore users won't ever be able to ever use any new presets for NI synths...

Unbelievable move by NI.

What might be reasons to engineer software like this? are there any business strategies behind this, selling preset banks?

Why can I use every plugin in Kore, but not NIs?

I don't get it. And the only answer will be: irrelevant, as NI has discontinued Kore.

If you think about it: Kore isn't only discontinued, it is beaten to death by incentive. The K8 move as a huge impact on Kore continuation from users. Kore users might upgrade to K8. But whenever they work with FM8, Massive or Absynth, they have to decide wether the work within Kore (K7), or without Kore (K8) and never be able to use their work in Kore later on...

Not to question with which version you work, if FM8, Absynth or Massive evolve further...

This, K8, is Kores definite end. Bummer. We have been calmed down and tricked up to now. Limited support for an unlimited time?

No excuses, no explanations, no support. I'm impressed.

 

as an example, i am talking about loading Massive 1.3 into Kore 2.1.3 -> choosing a Preset in Massive's Browser -> editing that Preset -> and then saving that as a Kore ksd.

sorry, when i say patches i should say presets.

sowari

 

@TabSel, unfortunately we have to be accurate here.

if you are a Mac owner, you can load the AU versions of Absynth, FM8 and Massive and save Presets as ksds.

but your comments Re: the VST version are somewhat justified.

sowari

 

isn't possible, as far as I understand it now.

not officially possible, as using Massive in Kore instantiates the engine (Massive < 1.3)

you can use the unsupported "workaround" and replace the engine with Massive 1.3 though but:

is not possible. And loading an existent ksd that uses Massive might not work, too. (unclear)
---

why is it possible for Kore to retreive and save Massive 1.3's state (preset) when used as AU, but not when used as VST, whereas every other host will be able to retreive and save Massive 1.3's state (preset), otherwise Massive 1.3 won't be usable in cubase, sonar, reaper, you name it...

I don't get it, I can't see any technical reasons for this and have to assume that it is so incentively. To kill Kore, in order to save on support for it? For what reasons?

I don't get it. I feel immensely cheated here, the last months...

 

Thanks for the clarification Sowari. Maybe at least some Mac users can help provide .ksd's for the new presets. Seems really odd though, if the AU plugin can do it, I don't understand why NI has crippled the VST. I'm definitely not a conspiracy theorist, but it's hard not to think NI is intentionally sabotaging Kore.

 

I don't think its a deliberate action to sabotage as the previous version of Kore also showed this behaviour, however no action was taken to rectify what looks like dependency in kore on the vst plugins.

This probably is one of the underlying reasons that the decision was taken to discontinue kore.

However, all this information has been known by NI since the beginning, and communication through this whole process has been dreadful at best. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I think its only right and proper that NI senior management give a direct written explanation to Kore users for this whole debacle.

 

I can't see any technical reasons, so I can only imagine that Massive 1.3, FM8 1.2 and Absynth 5.1 VST code contains some code in its plug state receive request routine that requests the Host name and giving an empty data chunk back if the Host name is Kore.

Which is why a hack of the VSTIDs of Massive 1.3, Absynth 5.1 or FM8 1.2 might work to have them as separate VSTs available in Kore (instead of the engines), but nevertheless the code will be the same and they won't provide Kore their plug states.

Massive >= 1.3, FM8 >= 1.2 and Absynth >= 5.1 WON'T be usable in Kore, as the one and only VST host.

Cool, isn't it?

NI, any technical insights on this? Ah, forget it, limited support and all this crap...
---

can you explain? I did not have Kore1, in fact, I only used Reaktor for over 10 years now, and just recently was so tempted to buy into further NI products with K7 and Kore2... *lol*

 

It doesn't - as I explained I have tried that. They load but won't save a koresound. The problem is Kore uses the VST engine version to save the sound - this is to ensure it loads in the standalone and plugin in other hosts. So trying to do that with a plugin where that functionality is taken out leads to a situation where kore is expecting it to do a job it can no longer do and you get an error message. However if it was possible to keep the ksd saving code in the AU version why not in the VST version as well? There was no good reason to take it out as far as I can see (conspiracy theories aside).

 

Join the club. The facebook group lost 4 members since friday since they understood the knowledge base differently, I guess they'll be back :lol:

So how about the koresounds they're denying that they already have? Isn't that sabotage as well? You can't load the new presets and therefore we also won't give the koresounds for them?

I think the reason to not fix this (yet) is pretty simple: it has been a bug for 4 years. Why fix it after discontinuing it?

 

How do you know? I don't think so. It would mean that you instantiate for example Massive 1.3 (how ever) within Kore, and when you save your Kore Sound, Kore requests Massive 1.3 plugin state, sends it to the engine v1.2, requests it back from the engine and saves it...

If it was this way, Kore wouldn't save a KoreSound with Massive v1.2 included, if you simply delete the engine vst dlls. But it does.

So your assumption is rather wrong, I guess...

Only NI developers can give technical insights here. But the won't and NI leaves their customers in the wild. I assume it's engineered this way incentively, if not stated and explained otherwise by NI. They have the right to do this, it's their thing. But I feel cheated big time.

 

The architecture in kore must be based on vst, so it uses the external version to save kore sounds when the engine one isn't available. The reason AU works is it is a different format, so you dont need to remove the internal engine to load it as an external plugin, hence the save functionality is still present in kore

Thats my take on it anyway

 

I'm already in But then...?

News, Reviews, Magazines, Customers praise the holy grail that is K8, but no magazine, newspaper says anything about Kore compatiility. I asked already.

No chance for us individuals that NI listens to US customers. They proved the don't. Instead they cheat us further.

I am so sad. And ashamed for NI, as a once great german company with great customer service, when they were some few geniuses working on Generator/Reaktor

 

OK, as I promised yesterday here's some more info on opening the updated versions of Absynth, FM8 and Massive in Kore.

A lot of you will be aware of these points already (you can skip to the end of this post) but for the sake of clarity, I'll outline the current situation first:

• Kore has six integrated engines (IEs) that work independently from eventually installed full versions of the instruments, and that are not affected by their updates (e.g by the new updates for Absynth, FM8 and Massive).
• When trying to load a VST plug-in that also has an IE counterpart within the same generation of the instrument (i.e. Absynth 5, Guitar Rig 4, etc.), Kore will load its IE version instead. The reasoning behind this is to enable sound compatibility on different systems.
• If the Kore IE version is based on a previous version within the same product generation (e.g. Absynth 5.0.3 vs. Absynth 5.1) it will not be compatible with the new sound file format. This is the case with Absynth 5, FM 8 and Massive on a Komplete 8 system. Hence, presets created in these instrument versions won't load in Kore (which includes the additional Komplete 8 presets).
• Reaktor 5 is not affected by this because Kore 2.1.3 includes the latest 5.6.1 engine.
• The new Guitar Rig 5 and Kontakt 5 will not be replaced by IEs when loaded into Kore, because they are different product generations.
• The reason Kore still includes previous versions of these instruments as IEs is to maintain the crucial compatibility with the KSD format. It was not possible to include the latest integrated engines for Absynth, FM 8 and Massive due to the incompatibility of the new preset format.

The bottom line is, users who consider Komplete 8, or who update their full versions of Absynth, FM8 or Massive to the latest versions individually, should be aware of the preset compatibility scenario above - the main point being they won't be able to access the additional presets (taken from previously released Kore soundpacks) included in the updated synths.

The developers are currently exploring an option for the next upcoming Kore update (tentatively called 2.1.4) that would deactivate the automatic substitution of VST plugins by their IE counterparts. I will bring you more news on the progress of this as I have it.

 

I get it. You won't ever talk about why Kore can't save a KoreSound including Massive 1.3, as Massive 1.3 is never supposed to load in Kore anyway, do you?

 

i also feel cheated but - apparently - Kore has always loaded the integrated engines when it comes to NI Plugins when you choose VST in the Kore Browser.

sowari