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Bug Odd time signatures in Maschine

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by machinesworkinghardforyou, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    K because NI, Germany. :cool:

    I have to give up on Maschine. It's a beautiful idea. I love the hardware, love the sounds, love the basic workflow.

    I don't write only in 4/4, and every time I write in odd time signatures Maschine fails miserably. A current song in 4/4 with a break in 9/8 constantly starts on the 8th beat of the 9/8 bar, on the upbeat turning the accent around, can't get worse of a bug than that. This is in any DAW I've tried, MIDI Change, updated recently continues this bug. Maschine as a closed environment is a great drum solution if you do not go outside of 4/4 or whatever time signature you're in, but if you do you have to print to audio or some other solution that's not as desirable when you're still writing.

    I've contacted tech support, it's an acknowledged bug now, and it's down to the support team, but looking back over the years in forums around the web this issue is pretty consistent. I can'r rely on Maschine as a solution for anything besides dance music songs, and even some dance music goes out of 4/4 sometimes.. It is downright bizarre to me how silent the forums are on this? Are we all writing only in 4/4 (or a single time signature) these days?
     
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  2. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,268
    Yes, using other people's samples.
     
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  3. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    6,824
    That Germany = Techno 4/4 only joke was kind of funny, kind of...
    I have to admit that in certain decisions it does feel like the office being filled with techno inclined employees has a bit of an influence, like when a 303 inspired bass synth that no asked for is released for example.

    No, I've seen users discussing using different odd time signatures in the same project but it's definitively a minority.

    You can totally make it work if you place your break in a Pattern/Scene/Section with the appropriate odd length, if the length is correct and matches the odd sig then everything will work fine regardless of Project signature.

    I don't consider this a bug, it might be lack of a feature or poor implementation. Don't forget that a Pattern-based environment as it's disadvantages, in a linear DAW this might not be an issue but those are completely different from maschine.

     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
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  4. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Wasn't a jab at Germany for 4/4, English spells Complete with a C. ;)


    Nope, that does not work, not one bit. That was the first solution Tech support sent. I've gone over this with tech support for at least a dozen emails. All the solutions do not work. I've tried it in multiple DAWs and sent NI project files, the bug is there on their systems as well.

    The only solutions that work at all are to import audio directly into the DAW from your various patterns, or to write the entire song out in the Arranger, completely avoiding using MIDI change. That's real fun to do considering Maschine recalculates the metre, measure etc.every time you jump to a section of the song that is in a new time signature. :mad: It also defeats the whole advantage of MIDI Change in that you're now rearranging two linear timelines during the writing process if you want to change the song structure.

    So to use Maschine as a VSTi in your DAW with MIDI Change you pretty much need to be in one time signature.
     
  5. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    6,824
    I always ignore the title once I read a thread, my bad!

    So... it doesn't work for the example you gave in the OP (4/4 with a break in 9/8)? or in some other situation?
     
  6. alpert

    alpert NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,048
    My favorite time signature!

    off topic i know, but is there a way to adjust click (for 9/8 for example) like:
    tik-tak
    tik-tak
    tik-tak
    tik-tak-tak?

    instead of:
    tik tak tak tak tak tak tak tak tak?

    Not: -++++++++
    But -+ -+ -+ -++
    ?

    [i will write my next post with mors code lol]
     
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  7. alpert

    alpert NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,048
    To the OP:
    I'd use a DAW, not Maschine with that.
     
  8. alpert

    alpert NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,048
    Maschine will be ok, you just need "sabır".

     
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  9. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    Are you using your DAW to midi trigger the Maschine sections? If so, then do not use the sections. Use the scene triggers in Ideas instead. Ideas does not have a timeline that your DAW timeline will fight with like the the sections in Maschine's Songs. Scene midi triggers in Ideas is designed to be used with an external sequencer where as the song/sections is not.
     
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  10. Culubrus

    Culubrus NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    62
    Totally agree. I think it is a very serious error that NI have not yet implemented a variable tempo line and that the metronome works so badly when the measures go out of 4/4. I've been waiting for that improvement for years, to such an extent that I've thought about switching to Ableton just for that.
     
  11. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Good guess but sorry, I'm using and have always used Scene MIDI. In my opinion Retrigger is broken, that might be the biggest issue. Hard to say, this has been an issue of varying degrees of bugginess for a long time.
     
  12. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Yep, I just upgraded to Suite 10, Ableton with Push 2 rewired into Reaper is looking like my drug of choice. It's sad though, because I really do enjoy using Maschine Studio hardware, it's pretty dammed cool to be able to just do everything in Maschine, including all VST plug in browsing, drum bussing and mixing.
     
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  13. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Because I want anyone even remotely connected to NI to know, and I assume anyone doing moderator work is at least a beta tester...

    In conversations about this I was told that I needed at least something written in sections, just a simple couple bars etc. otherwise it wouldn't work. That did not help.
    I was told to try retrigger.
    That did not help.
    Other ideas were floated.
    Eventually it was that Maschine simply isn't capable of not losing beats if you use multiple time signatures in the same song fired by MIDI notes in a DAW that correspond to patterns in different time signatures. Basically Maschine cannot do what drum machines 20+ years ago could do. Maschine itself was released April 1st 2009, coming up on ten years ago.

    I have to give up, the sad for me part of this is this is my third failure buying hardware from NI. I've owned Kore 2, Rig Kontrol 3 and Maschine Studio.
    I was told development on Maschine would be extraordinary, since they were killing Kore, I was informed that Rig Kontrol has outdated audio chips in it that Apple and others will not support in the future, so NI have no ability to update drivers for it when the software starts to fail. Almost ten years later and Maschine is still incapable of writing songs in more than one time signature without serious workflow killing issues.

    Best part is Maschine Studio is more or less obsolete as well, mostly being replaced by MK3, so I have to sell it for peanuts. Moving on to MPC Live, and Push 2. ----->
     
  14. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    7,810
    machinesworkinghardforyou Would you mind clarifying the bug that you've run into and that has been confirmed by support? I see a lot of different issues being touched upon in this thread, but I'm not 100% sure what your main issue is.

    If you don't mind, would you clarify the following for me?

    Specific steps to reproduce...

    Expected outcome...

    Observed outcome...


    Thanks in advance.
     
  15. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Use Maschine as a plug in in a DAW. Use MIDI notes in DAW to fire scenes in Maschine for various parts of a song as advertised. Have a song in more than one time signature. Watch Maschine start the new time signature in the middle of the scene, sometimes turning the accents upside down by doing so. Nothing prevents this retrigger being selected doesn’t, nothing works.

    Maschine in stand alone mode can’t even use multiple time signatures in a song... I give up. You’re having a hard time understanding what’s happening because you don’t use odd time signatures, so it’s not an issue. Obviously that’s like more than 99% of Maschine user base or this would be a huge deal, so I have to concede, NI have no vested interest in fixing this. It’s been 9 years, there are other options, time to move on.
     
  16. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    I think I see what your are talking about. Maschine's sequencer was not designed to follow your DAW time signature changes and does not have any way of changing time sig in the middle of a song itself. Maschine has one time sig for the whole song. This is just the type of problems that occur when you try to use two sequencers at the same time. Basically, it sounds like you are asking it to do something it was not designed to do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  17. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    Actually there is 100% ZERO documentation saying Maschine cannot follow time signature changes instigated by a DAW when Maschine is a plug in. This is why tech support and I have spent dozens of emails on this. No other drum machine plug in with it's own sequencer has this problem, so no, it's not like I'm expecting more out of Maschine than what other plug ins with their own sequencers can do. In fact everything about MIDI Scene firing in Maschine would lead you to believe that Maschine is capable of firing off different patterns of different lengths without a hitch, including features like Retrigger etc.
    When it comes down to it, Maschine is horribly limited when it comes to time signatures, it's own Sequencer cannot even host more than one time signature, and with Scene firing it glitches when used as advertised, it only works if a sequence is looped on that particular time signature... I get it, you love it, you don't write in other time signatures so it works for you, but it's like I said, in terms of a drum machine, (what it primarily is marketed as), it's horribly crippled for anyone writing complex time signature music.
    MPC2 kills it in this regard, so does dedicated solutions to drum sequencers like Spark, Beatstep Pro with Battery etc. Say what you want, but I don't see how anyone reading through the advertising for Maschine could expect that it cannot handle more than a simple 4/4 song, especially considering it can do other time signatures, just not in the same song. It's an insane thing to leave completely undeveloped 9 years after you introduce an "MPC killer" like Maschine.
     
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  18. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    7,810
    Bit of an assumption, there. A faulty one too. I often use multiple (and odd) time signatures in a track. What I don't do is use a DAW to sequence Maschine.

    Scenes? Or Sections? Or does it not work either way? If not, is it broken in the same way whether you trigger Scenes or Sections?

    This refers to time signature automation in your DAW, correct?

    Do you have retrigger on and the perform grid set to off? Does that make any difference?

    Lastly, which DAW are you using and what version of Maschine is the plugin that you're using?
     
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  19. machinesworkinghardforyou

    machinesworkinghardforyou NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    414
    No offense, but I wasn't replying to you. Nit pick it all you want but it stands that I don't see a stitch of concern about Maschine only having one time signature in it's song timeline, that's a huge indicator that most of the user base is concerned with other issues in Maschine. You're also multi quoting me with questions while not explaining how or if, you're using Maschine at all with your multi time signature songs.


    It does not work either way, we tried multiple workarounds etc.


    Yes, the basic workflow is to write the part in Maschine as a plug in, in the section of the song in the time signature the part is in, then set up note triggers in the DAW to fire off the Scenes at the break, bridge, chorus etc. etc.

    Yeah, doesn't really make a difference, it if I'm recalling simply changes slightly how badly it glitches. In a part with 4/4 and 9/8 the it hits the 9/8 scene it fires off at the 8th measure, which is even more troubling, since it's not a division of 4/4, not even changing the amount of 4/4 measures would help this.
    I've used this in current versions of Reaper, Live, and DP9. I sent them in a Reaper file in case they could find a solution, no go. You don't often get support conceding that there's no end user error, but at the end of the day support admitted that Maschine is still a sketch tool, not a complete song creation sequencer etc. Partially true, it works great, unless you attempt to use it like you would use any drum machine in a DAW.
     
  20. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    7,810
    OK, it just seemed like you were because mine was the only post before the post I quoted and your post seemed to kind of respond to what I'd asked.

    I thought it was implied that I use Maschine and I said I don't sequence it with a DAW, but fair enough: I use Maschine for pretty much everything except multitrack recording (REAPER) and live audio looping (Live). And my way of doing multiple time signatures inside Maschine has even been quoted in this very thread (see the bottom of post #3). ;)

    Just so I can get it right when I try it and see this for myself (it's not my workflow, you see)... As an example, do you have one Scene/Section that is in 4/4 and 4 bars long (so is 16 1/4 beats long), another Scene/Section that is in 9/8 and also 4 bars long (so 18 1/4 beats long), another Scene/Section in 5/4 and just 2 bars long (so 10 1/4 beats long), and you then trigger these with MIDI notes from your DAW's timeline?
    Or do the Scenes/Sections not marry up with the time signature?

    As you say and know, without making the lengths of the Patterns/Scenes/Sections match the time signatures you want, Maschine won't adjust accordingly because it doesn't change time signature in its timeline.

    And I largely agree. Even though I personally use it for everything, a lot of how I use it is through workarounds and/or perseverance.