Patch & Play community

Discussion in 'REAKTOR' started by bolabo, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    Hey Guys

    As they were putting together the Blocks Patch & Play format, Philipp and the other guys in the NI Reaktor team were very keen that P&P should have a vibrant ecosystem of 3rd party content.

    I think that the technical entry point for developing Reaktor blocks is really low compared to other platforms, which makes it super fun. It's pretty easy to build blocks and there are already loads of amazing blocks in the user library from many amazingly talented builders.

    From what i understand there are, and have always been plans to add the ability to patch with user created blocks, but the R6.3 launch version, for various technical reasons currently doesn't have this ability (I know this has been discussed at quite some length in other ares of this forum, but I think, for this we simply need to be patient).

    In the mean time I definitely think it would be great for more people to get into building some cool new blocks for P&P. Me and Micheal (Euro Reakt) are currently the only ones who have P&P packs available (although I did see a couple of blocks in the UL with front panel ports). It would be great to get some more blocks builders on board.

    I understand there is the hurdle of the NKS pricing but the NKS teams are super helpful, you can just drop them an email to discuss your ideas.

    I was thinking I could help maybe with contributing to a 'Community Pack'. For this we could, among the community, collect a bunch of new and existing blocks from different builders, user library blocks etc, add the front panel ports (takes about 15 mins to change the panel width and make the ports visible, there are some guidelines for the exact port locations, text colour etc..) I can definitely help with adding ports and I would be happy to host this pack on the toybox site for free.. this pack could be made available to users for free.. or maybe we could charge just enough to cover any NKS fees.

    I can also make some simple blocks templates / starting points for anyone interested in making some blocks from scratch, of course people are free to take any blocks from the toybox packs and use these as starting points for their own creations, this is the beauty of Reaktor.. maybe we can start a blocks building thread too.. or just use this thread :)

    Also feel free to direct-message me if you have any questions about block building.

    David
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  2. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,071
    Unless helpful means reduced licencing fees, then it really doesn't make much difference.
    If NI wants to encourage community builders to monetise their work, then why isn't there a tiered structure for small companies and individuals vs established companies. Seems that the way it's set up actually penalises individuals and small startups - you need to go with bulk licencing to get a better deal.

    How do we know what to charge to cover NKS fees?
    It was the beauty of Reaktor, but now stuff is locked. Your Toybox free pack for example. Nobody can use that as the starting point of their own creations because it's locked for editing.
     
  3. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,071
    I have some projects in development that I would be interested in licencing for racks, but I have technical questions that I have asked about Racks here on the forum and in the beta group that have not been answered.
    I very much prefer to discuss theses kinds of things in a public or semi-public context because the answers could important for lots of builders, but I didn't get any answers.

    The main question is related to snap values and snap value arrays, and how they are handled by Racks in the context of the 'host chunk' based saving system.
    My project uses a very large snap value array, and I want to know what the memory size limits are on saving in host chunks, and how this might effect my project. It would be good to have some guidelines on this.
    It's something that I could easily test if I could build content for racks myself, but to do that I would need to pay licencing fees, which I'm not willing to consider until I know if my project is viable. Catch 22.
    This is not something that I think needs to be a private discussion between me and NI. It's the sort of information that needs to be in the public domain for other folk in similar situations. Basically, we need some thorough documentation on building for Racks, what the gotchas are, and where the little nasty corner cases are that differ from standard Reaktor. So we can make a more informed decision about licencing our projects.

    I also need to know the licencing details in regard to partials framework. There seem to be no licencing documents with the downloads (that I can find), and no contact details to make a request. So clarification on that would be good.

    Which brings up another issue. You say that using other peoples work as a starting point for building your own is the beauty of Reaktor, but for commercial stuff, this is not true. Using other peoples code without permission is breaking intellectual property law. There are many builders who have been making Reaktor stuff for years and use lots of macros they have collected that they didn't write and where they can't remember the original author. You can't just monetise this stuff - it's not legal. I would be pretty angry if I discovered someone selling a product containing my code without contacting me for the right to use it first.
     
  4. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    True, but TBH I recon the fees are pretty reasonable (https://www.native-instruments.com/en/specials/komplete/this-is-nks/pricing/) ranging between 1.5% to 9% depending on quantity and price.

    I can ask the NI NKS guys what they think about this idea.. I even think it could be something we could do every 6 months, 'Community Pack 1' then 'Community Pack 2' I suggest we set a deadline, maybe April 2020? to have all the blocks ready for the pack in a shared dropbox then we can figure out getting them encoded for P&P. I'm sure we can work something out that will benefit NI and the community. There are guidelines provided by NI for encoding and licence fees for free packs but I recon we could cover these fees just from crowd funding, I definitely would support such a project.

    All the toybox packs are unlocked and freely editable. Although once edited you can't save and then load the edited block in rack mode without re-encoding because of the user content restriction of rack mode..

    Also I can make some templates from un-encoded blocks which could be freely distributed..

    How big is your array? The stereo version of the toybox 'Sampler' block has 2 snapshot arrays that store 882000 floats each in the host chunk without any issues.. so that's around 7MB of data..

    I will try to answer any questions if I can :) or I can test some stuff out for you..

    I have no idea about that but my feeling is that the partials framework was developed by by NI employees or people pretty close to the company and that it's been so heavy used and integrated into most peoples Reaktor development that it shouldn't be a too much of an issue to use it in commercial work.. best to talk to NI about that though as I could be wrong.

    Yes, I have had discussions about this with the Reaktor team and also in a couple of other threads on this board.. the conclusion was that really it's down to common sense.. of course it's important to get permission, where possible, for macros and code where it's been used, but due to the way, as you mention, that reaktor builders are constantly recycling their own code and code of others as they learn and start building projects, it's ultimately not possible to be super rigid about it.. I know for the toybox packs I messaged a few people to get permission and credited them on the website.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  5. Jonathan Tremblay

    Jonathan Tremblay NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    349
    Community packs would be coo, very akin to the 'Reaktor Library' set of ensembles.
    I'm sure I have some backlog of blocks I can contribute, but for the most part they're either hosted on the UL page, or my storefront.
     
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  6. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    Cool! Yeah I have a bunch of interesting blocks for this too.. I can set up a dropbox

    I'll message some people and see if we can get some more interest.. maybe people can nominate their favourite user library blocks (there are 676 entries for blocks in there right now!) and then maybe we can see if the builders would be up for contributing.
     
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  7. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,071
    Assuming we can sell all the licenses.
    That's odd because on my install, the toybox free pack are all locked for editing. I wonder if there was a problem with my install and I have some earlier version or a beta installed?
    My table is much smaller than that - more like 150000 floats.
    I did a bunch of research and read various accounts mostly on KVR forum that some hosts can throw a wobbly if projects hit 10s of Mb. Maybe it was out of date, or just false information, but it would be good to get some actual hard info. Wouldn't be good if some users have problems associated with this just becasue they happen to be using a few different blocks that all use large snap value arrays, and they are on a DAW that is less generous with it's host chunk allowance.
    .............

    I'd be interested in putting a block or two into a free community pack. Do you thing NI would get behind this an waive the licencing fees - turn it into a marketing opportunity and make the result available on the Player? with prizes? Maybe similar to the competition they had a while back?
     
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  8. p1afff

    p1afff NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,083
    This looks like a great idea.
     
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  9. glyngad

    glyngad NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    41
    Hi all, must admit I am a bit lost by all the new Blocks, racks, NKS thing as I am a bit of an old duffer to be honest but I do enjoy building blocks and ensembles basically for myself and then passing them onto to library for others to enjoy using or adapting or whatever. I think this would be a great idea and hopefully a great way of getting Reaktor buzzing again as it does seem a bit quiet lately. Cheers, Glyn.
     
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  10. Moshe B

    Moshe B NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    118
    if some pack is going to get out can I send some thing?
     
  11. tkurgpold

    tkurgpold NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    72
    God, I'd love this. I've been wanting front panel patching for ages, and as awesome as it was to finally have it, being limited to the NI blocks and the Euroreakt/Toybox stuff is a bit disappointing(Although, to be clear, Euroreakt still impresses the hell out of me with its sheer size), meaning I have to decide if I want front panel patching or a certain third party block. Make something super awesome with front panel patching and realize it'd be perfect with a 3rd party block? No bueno, try again.

    Just a little frustrating. I'm still overjoyed that there are any free blocks that support the new format, let alone packs as big as those. This sounds like a great idea, and I'm fully in support.
     
  12. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    Brilliant! Good idea, I contacted a few other builders..
     
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  13. Brett Lavallee

    Brett Lavallee NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    821
    I’m in.
    I have a bunch of Blocks ready already.
     
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  14. Catman Dude

    Catman Dude NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    399
    What do you mean 'locked for editing'?
    I had David's Multi Effects block in Reaktor Standalone (Philippe asked me a question and I needed to look at it), and when I read your statement, I opened the Process macro and moved wires around, and nothing prevented me from that or from saving my changes. o_O
     
  15. Catman Dude

    Catman Dude NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    399
    If I come up with something that anyone else would want to use, I'll happily donate it to this cause.
    (But I don't want to get involved in licenses or fees or revenues or any of that stuff.)
     
  16. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    Amazing! I think we have around 6 blocks builders including you guys offering to contribute blocks now :)

    I recon we should allow a couple of months to get the word out to everyone who might contribute to the pack, maybe with a deadline of March 2020 to put the first Community Pack together.
     
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  17. colB

    colB NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,071
    I would have thought that was obvious?
    If I create a new ensemble, and drag a Block from the toybox free pack in the Reaktor browser pane on the left, then double click it's instrument representation in the structure pane to open it for editing, nothing happens - it is locked. All of them are. If I perform exactly the same process with any of the factory Blocks, they will open up so I can navigate the layers and edit the structure.
     
  18. bolabo

    bolabo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    172
    This is strange, might be an issue with Native Access.. PM me and I'll see if I can figure out what's happening.. you might need to do a 'repair' in Native Access or re-enter the serial number.
     
  19. p1afff

    p1afff NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,083
    Toybox Free Pack or EuroReakt Free are not locked here. Holonic Systems Source Block is locked.
     
  20. Catman Dude

    Catman Dude NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    399
    I was trying to describe what I was doing so you could compare to what you were doing. Since they're the same I infer that means it's in your setup, not Toybox. (I was trying to help.)
     
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