Something similar to FX loop

Discussion in 'GUITAR RIG' started by ejmillan, Jan 15, 2020.

  1. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    I'm new to the subject of pedals, effects and so on, so little by little I'm learning more about this.
    So, even though it seems a bit stupid, I'll ask my question.
    Today I learned the advantages and utilities that an FX loop has in an amplifier, so I read the documentation of components in Guitar Rig and I didn't find something clear that could be like this.
    When this happens and I can't find what I'm looking for in the documentation, I directly experiment in GR.
    Then I drag a random amplifier and automatically the matched cabinet appears too. I then put a delay effect between the amp and the cabinet and the resulting sound is quite different from when I put the delay effect before the amp.
    [​IMG]
    Following this, can it be said that the power stage is in the cabinet and that placing the effects between the amp and the cabinet makes the same effect as an FX loop or is my guess simply foolish?
     
  2. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    ejmillan,

    With regards to you question, "...do you know anything about FX Loop on Guitar Rig? I received + 20 hits in the thread but nobody answers my question. maybe it's a very silly question?" ....firstly, no question is ever silly, and second, I know nothing of FX loops...so I will not be much assistance to you here.

    Let us see what EvilDragon has to say on this topic.
     
  3. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

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    15,736
    FX loop is placed between a preamp and a poweramp in a guitar amplifier. In GR this is unfortunately not separated so you cannot have FX loops - the power amp part IS a part of the amplifier module. The cabinet is a separate module (which either uses convolution or filters) applied after the whole amp module (so after poweramp).

    Sorry I have to disappoint here :(
     
  4. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    It really is a question which, in my case, only has the importance of knowing if this could be called that or if it is equivalent. Perhaps as a formal question.
    I am very clear that the sound achieved is different. Maybe it would be interesting to know this in order to replicate combinations of pedals and effects that use FX Loop.
    In the picture some combos with FX Loop feature
    [​IMG]

    Example of an FX Loop
    [​IMG]

     
  5. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    There's no disappointment, don't worry.
    Now I know that's not "technically speaking" an FX Loop.

    I really saw a tone that I liked in Rocksmith 2014 and I noticed that they use the configuration:
    -pedals
    -amp
    -loop
    -cabinet
    -racks.

    So in a way, they insert the effects pedals between the amp and cabinet (not between the preamp and power amp) and this is similar in GR.

    Thank you very much for responding.:)
     
  6. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    Hello,

    Is an FX Loop then similar to a AUX Send/Return on a mixing console?
     
  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

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    15,736
    Yes.

    No... FX loop (if it's a feature of the amplifier) is AFAIK always between poweramp and preamp.

    You cannot insert pedals between the amp and the cabinet because the signal coming out of the amp would be way too strong for the pedals to handle. At least that's my understanding.
     
  8. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    ejmillan,

    EvilDragon stated, "You cannot insert pedals between the amp and the cabinet because the signal coming out of the amp would be way too strong for the pedals to handle. At least that's my understanding." ...This reasoning is absolutely correct...!

    So, ejmillan, do you understand what an AUX Send/Return is? If not, I have some great information on this topic.

    For GR5 to have real-and-true FX Loop, that option would need to be part of the amplifier itself - which, sadly, this option is not available.

    I do hope that this all makes sense?
     
  9. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    I probably misunderstood. I mean, in the absence of further analysis, the configuration in Rocksmith may not simulate an FX Loop, as it is present in all molded amplifiers, some of which in the real world did not have this feature implemented.
    And in that sense, maybe the behavior is similar to what happens with Guitar Rig. But it's something that I can check by comparing the sounds.

    On the other hand, and accepting that in real life, it would not be possible to place, for example, an effect (like the delay of my first post) after the amp, I do that in Guitar Rig and according to my modest untrained ear (all with the same settings, just changing the position of the delay pedal):

    -a) Delay pedal before amplifier: overlapping distortion in the delay waves making the sound less clean. On some low notes, a distortion appears (like a combination of distortions)
    -b) Delay pedal between amplifier and cabinet: I notice that the sound is cleaner, the distortion is applied to each delay wave and since it gradually reduces its volume (according to the repetition) there is not such a perceptible overlap.

    In both cases, there is a difference in the signal coming into the delay pedal (red LED). Indeed, the red signal LED on the delay pedal lights less at position a) and lights more brightly at position b) (the amplifier gain), but there is no problem with GR to work this way.

    So if that Guitar Rig combination is not possible in real life, what is it? :confused:
     
  10. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

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    15,736
    A lot of things that GR can do isn't easily achievable in real life. :p
     
  11. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    From a purist point of view (not my point of view), one could say that Guitar Rig does not realistically simulate a real-life environment. I often read that GR lags behind in the realistic implementation of molded tones, or that the audio engine has significant disadvantages.
    I don't particularly care so much. If I get the sound that I like in an unorthodox way (for the real world), it is indifferent to me because I don't interact with real-life equipment.
    Well, I am not an expert, I just try to get the positive out of this software and for my (home) use, I am reasonably happy.
    So with my newly acquired pedalboard Rig Kontrol 3 (used but in perfect condition), I am advancing in the understanding of this software that I underused.

    The current Guitar Rig handicap (in my modest opinion) is the lack of a more current version that renews interest in users to invest time and money with the security (which does not exist now) that the project did not come to an end.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  12. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    ejmillan,

    First, can you answer the question regarding AUX Send/Return?

    Second, I am not sure of anyone who would place an effect between the amp head and the amp cabinet.
     
  13. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    56
    ejmillan,

    Note: This top is going rather south - so I am not too sure if this discussion should be part of a separate thread...anyhow...

    In consideration of your recent comments...

    C1: From a purist point of view (not my point of view), one could say that Guitar Rig does not realistically simulate a real-life environment.
    R1: This comment IS interesting, as I thought that GR5 - as well as similar softwares, do. You have 1) a pedal board, 2) an amp head, 3) an amp cabinet, and 4) rack effects. So, my question then is, how does GR5 not realistically simulate a real-life environment?

    C2: I often read that GR lags behind in the realistic implementation of molded tones, or that the audio engine has significant disadvantages.
    R2: I am not sure what you mean by "molded tones"? GR5 is indeed an older application - especially when compared with others. This being said, over the past few weeks, I have been installing and testing a number of "owned" amp sims - Helix Native, Overloud THU, Scuffham S-Gear, Softube Amp Room and Waves GTR3 - and in all honesty - to my ears, I really-and-truly do not hear a significant difference in the actual output - inasmuch as performing such tests is at all possible...which it is not. In reality, I find that I am able to achieve the sounds that I am looking with GR5 more so than any of the other softwares.

    C3: So with my newly acquired pedal board Rig Kontrol 3 (used but in perfect condition), I am advancing in the understanding of this software that I underused.
    R3: I also have a Rig Kontrol 3 on-hold for me that I will have a look at. However, my present "live rig" allows me to change presets all without the use of any external gear - such changes being handled entirely with the software itself.

    C4: The current Guitar Rig handicap (in my modest opinion) is the lack of a more current version that renews interest in users to invest time and money with the security (which does not exist now) that the project did not come to an end.
    R4: I am somewhat of the same opinion, though in consideration of R2 above, I am of the opinion that GR5 will meet my current and future needs and requirements.

    I owned an amp head that had a built-in graphic EQ. Checking out the schematics of thishead, I discovered that this particular graphic EQ was post Gain and pre-tone stack. I was hoping to be able to produce this functionality within GR5 - but, it would appear that I am not able to so. The only amp that currently provides this potential functionality is Bass Pro - though I am not too sure where the graphic EQ sits within this head? The only resolve is to place an EQ in-between the amp head and the cabinet - which, I am to assume, does not produce the same end result.

    I hope that the above makes sense and is of interest?
     
  14. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    I'll try to answer in parts:
    I don't know what AUX Send/Return means.
    What I asked about FX Loop was also completely unknown to me and I had to look for additional information about this.
    About your statement about the placement of pedals behind the amplifier, I agree.
    However, in your other questions, I will try to explain my argument.

    That is indeed what you say, but I am referring to the fact, verified by me, that Guitar Rig, allows placing an effect pedal between the amp and the cabinet. From a realistic point of view, this should not be allowed by Guitar Rig because the real components do not allow such a connection.
    That is why I argue that it is not realistic since it allows configurations that cannot be done in real-life equipment. But I'm not saying that that's bad in itself, I don't even make a value judgment about whether that's right or wrong. I'm just stating the fact that this situation exists in GR.

    I'm just echoing what I read here in the user forum, plus other comparative analyses on the web.
    The translator translates, but I'm to blame because I don't check all the text after the translation. I didn't mean modeled tones, I meant modeled or simulated amplifiers (and pedals), that is, making the sound of a certain component as accurate as possible to its real-world counterpart.

    I also tried some similar software the last two weeks. Some even had tempting prices. A really attractive graphical interface and a lot of marketing. However (as I indicated above) I am satisfied because my knowledge is very basic and I am learning. Also influenced by the fact that I don't use the software for anything commercial, just for fun at home, and in that respect Guitar Rig far exceeds my needs.

    I hope Rig Kontrol 3 is satisfactory for you.
    Just remember that you need driver 1.7.4 (R199) and not later versions (because the support for Rig Kontrol disappears)
    About this, I tried Rig Kontrol 3 with demo versions: Amplitube, Tonelib GFX, Overloud THU, Peavey Reaper and others. I used the expression pedal and it responded correctly. It was a basic test without too much depth.
    On the Live button, it's always more fun with the pedalboard. Keep your hands busy and change things with your feet.
    My abandonment on Guitar Rig has more to do with my inexperience and ignorance of many functions. Also (and don't comment too loudly) I didn't read the manuals at the time.

    I have nothing to say about this. I feel the same way.

    BassPro (as extracted from various sources on the web) appears to be based on Ampeg SVT-2Pro.
    And if this is so, I looked over the user manual on the manufacturer's website and saw a complete manual with a block diagram, which might be useful for you:
    https://ampeg.com/pdf/SVT-2PRO.PDF

    [​IMG]
    According to this scheme, the graphic equalizer is after the gain and the tone stack.
    Also here we can see how the FX Loop is after the graphic equalizer (with which the preamp stage ends) and before PowerAmp. This is how a real amplifier works.

    It's all very interesting. Thank you very much for your comments, they are very valuable and help me to learn a little more.:)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2020
  15. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

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    46
    This is the origin of my initial doubt that we have discussed in this thread:

    [​IMG]
    The text in the screenshot of the Rocksmith 2014 Sound Editor is in Spanish but it graphically shows that between the amp and the screen there are two effect pedals (an EQ and a chorus)
    The section where they are located in the "Bucle" (Loop), the description of that section is the one that started everything, I quote:
    "Assign a pedal here to affect your sound after the amp, but before the cabinet."

    This created the initial confusion. Also as I read about FX Loop I fed into my mind the possibility that by placing the pedals after the amp, the software already inferred that they were part of the effects loop.
    To give an example that fed into my mind that possibility, in the split component in Guitar Rig, the separate channels do not run parallel (due to the graphic design of the interface for the effects chain), but are stacked on top of each other. However, the signals run parallel on the two separate channels.

    Although Rocksmith is a game for playing guitar and bass, it is curious how they have chosen that configuration (loop after amp and before cabinet) and with that limited number of elements they manage to emulate guitar and bass tones of many songs.

    I have a basic version of Amplitube and out of curiosity I reviewed this. There the loop is a separate module (called Insert) that has no continuity (it's send and return). I can't test it because I don't have this enabled in my basic version, so I will look for other alternative ways to reach a conclusion, or a better understanding of the position of the effects behind the amp and before the cabinet in Guitar Rig.

    Any information or conclusion I come to, I will share it here.

     
  16. ejmillan

    ejmillan NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    46
    After seeing many user-created presets where I didn't find any pedals or effects between the amp and the cabinet (Cabinets & Mics, Matched cabinet, Control Room or Control Room Pro) I started to think that maybe the option of placing something in that position was anecdotal.
    I also thought that maybe the developers didn't take this situation into account when designing Guitar Rig and that this was simply possible in Guitar Rig (without further analysis or implications)
    I already gave up on this subject and was working on other things at Guitar Rig when I found this:

    [​IMG]
    This is a preset that is included in the default Guitar Rig installation (it is not a user preset).
    It is a preset created by the NI Design Collective.
    This preset includes an equalizer and a compressor between the amp and the cabinet.
    This indicates that the placement of elements between the amplifier and the cabinet is known and used by the design team and is not accidental.

    Only in the label "New in GR5", I found other presets included on Guitar Rig 5 Pro, with this configuration (Amplifier-Effects-Cabinet):
    • Atmo Git (Twang Reverb - Fast Comp - Control Room Pro)
    • Breath You Hold (Jazz Amp - Twin Delay - Control Room Pro)
    • Compressed Rock`n Roll (AC Box - Fast Comp - Control Room Pro)
    • Country Strat or Tele Brid (Twang Reverb - Fast Comp - Control Room Pro
    • Country Git Clean (Twang Reverb - Fast Comp - Control Room Pro
    • Goldchair Rythm (hot solo + - custom eq - Control Room Pro)
    • Hit me on the filterbank (hot solo + - filterbank - Control Room Pro)
    And many more...
    In the bass presets, I also found several similar ones:
    • Chorus Bass (Bass Pro - Ensemble - Matched Cabinet)
    • Flange Bass (Bass Pro - Electric Lady - Matched Cabinet)
    • Octaver Bass (Bass Pro - Oktaver - Matched Cabinet)
    • Phaser Bass (Bass Pro - Phaser nine - Matched Cabinet)
    • Scoop Bass (Bass Pro - Electric Lady - Matched Cabinet)
    There are more examples but I didn't want to make the list any longer here.

    My conclusion (of course, not an expert) is that the placement of those elements there is (somehow) similar to an FX Loop.
    Maybe only the development team finally knows what they were looking for with this configuration.
    The mere inclusion of these presets in the installation package, is very revealing (at least for me).
     
  17. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    ejmillan,
    ... I am hoping that someone else will chime-in here...but placing effects in-between the amp and the cab in NOT an effects loop.

    To be a true FX Loop, the circuitry must be within the amp itself - at least...this is what I have been able to ascertain.

    So, just because the folks at NI decided to position effects where they did - this placement should not be construed as bearing any resemblance to a true FX Loop.

    Lastly, just because you could place an effect in-between the amp and the cab...I highly doubt that I would ever place an effect in such a position using real hardware! Would you?
     
  18. dasoli

    dasoli NI Product Owner

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    468
    I personally would rather not place speakers in a rack.;)
     
  19. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    dasoli,
    ... Not too sure that I am understanding you here?

    I guess placing the speakers in a rack would all depend of what you inferring to?

    As I see it, the visual design characteristics of Guitar Rig permit the use "speakers-in-a-rack" - but that would be as far as this visual design characteristic goes. Unless, of course, you are speaker-ing - or referring to something else?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020 at 2:34 AM
  20. mr-es335

    mr-es335 NI Product Owner

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    ejmillan,

    The following is a diagram of an FX Loop....notice where the source of FX Loop is located...both the Send and the Receive are located within the amp head itself.
     

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