Sound Quality issue on a large club rig (reassure me about Traktor!)

I have been using Traktor for about 2 years, and have never had any major problems with the software or my setup. I have been playing out in clubs for the last year or so, usually clubs with less than outstanding soundsystems.

I play Psytrance, and usually use an M-audio audiophile with the clubs external mixer, recently together with a BCD2000.

However the other week I played a support slot in a club with a really nice sound rig, I was less than excited with my sound. But after the main act took over (on CDj's - Pioneer CDJ-100's) the sound was WAY better, im not sure if the clubbers noticed, but I, the other DJ, and the sound guy did. It was to do with lack of 'punch' in the psytrance bass kick. My sound sounded a bit muddied and not separated out in frequencies. The kick should be really powerful and sharp; like a wall of sound hitting you in the face each beat.

Ok so I have been thinking about this issue and am not sure what the most likely cause of my probelm is, wondering if anyone has experience of playing decent soundsystems (particularly psytrance..?).

The other Dj told me it would be the mp3's? In which case should I switch to wav's? (I used mainly 320kbs, some 256 so unlikely?? Remembering the blind test they did at Fabric in London). Could it be traktors sound engine? (I guess not since many pro's use it). However it could well be the fact that on that night I used the audio built into the BCD200 instead of my Maudio Audiophile to save on set up time(presumably the audiophile has better D/A converters than the Behringer?) . I hope this is the simple answer..? Any other reasons..? The cabling, way it was plugged into the house mixer (I plugged my mix into one channel of a very nice Allen&Heath mixer, compared with the CDj's obviously having one channel each)?

I really hope someone can help me out, give some places to start / reassure me about using Traktor and a laptop to mix. I dont want to have to go back to Cd's just because I cant sort a simple problem. Its given me the fear about my whole collection stored as mp3's not wavs...! I was a champion of the laptop Dj, now I am questioning my very make up! Its hard for me to test/investigate, because the difference in quality is only apparent on big sound rigs, not through my hi-fi at home.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Adam (Dj Skenderbeg)

------------------------------------------------------

Dell Latitude laptop
M-audio Audiophile
Behringer BCD2000

 

Can you check with your own system comparing the Audiophile and the BCD-2000 to hear which one sounds better? Then compare the Audiophile to the CDJ setup.

If it's the sound card then am all ears as well. Was also told that M-Audio sound cards give a lower gain output than others. Still can't decide which Firewire audio interface to get.

 

There's your culprit. Behringer audio gives sh1t a bad name. Why anyone would go from the tried&true M-Audio DA converters to Behringer's low-ball paste & pray quality, I can't imagine. The BCD2000 may be useful as a controller, but as an audio interface? Ewwwww.

I would echo lestercallenta's advice: blind test the Audiophile & the Behringer on a quality system. The did that at a party I was playing: brought out my Behringer desktop mixer cuz someone wanted to plug in with me. I sound checked & couldn't understand why everything sounded muddy -- no clear separation in the lows and mids. I turned everything off and went straight out from my (then) Quattro card, and the difference was noticeable to everyone in the room, not just picky DJ types.

I literally threw away the Behringer.

 

Good advice guys...
as for the mp3/wav thing.....some people would say there is no difference...but doesn't your audience deserve the best? (esp. if ya gettin paid for it! lol)
So if anyone was to criticise you using mp3's (they seem to have a bad name these days coz of quality, p2p networks etc), u could just tell em you don't use em!
};>

 

AW: Sound Quality issue on a large club rig (reassure me about Traktor!)

thanx boysteve .. that you mention this

it's my opinon too that the behringer stuff sounds muddy without dynamics and clearnes

i already compared the bcd2000 and the audiophile with a friend .. its a big difference

.. the sound comes from the soundcard and its drivers

 

Thank you all for your suggesstions.

I agree with the audiophile/behringer comments. Only tried the behringer to save on set up time, never used it as a soundcard before, and wont again. it would make sense that is the culprit, my problems seemed to be with low frequecy response. I presume mp3's dont hack away too much of the low/sub bass?

I tried the BCD verus audiophile at home but cant really tell on a small hifi, I think id need something bigger to feel the difference in the critical low frequencies. Time for me to beg or borrow the use of a nice Opus rig for an hour or so...

I think this is a really critical point, that people may only discover when playing on nice, big, systems. We as laptop Djs cant give the rest of us a bad name, we have a duty to supply sounds at least as good in quality as Cds and vinyls.

I am tempted to use only wavs from now on, if only as storage is now so cheap, there seems little point in throwing away all that audio info, even if theres only a small chance people would be able to tell.

Anyone else had experience playing out in clubs, and if so what soundcards do you use?

Cheers for the responses people!

Adam (Dj Skenderbeg)

 

Same here. I once tried an Indigo DJ because I didn't want to carry my M-Audio Quattro around any longer. At home there was almost no difference in sound but at the club the sound was all crap. No dynamics at all. I then played a track off a cd, reinstalled the Quattro (very thrilling in a live situation I can tell) and I was back as usual - I would go so far saying it sounds better than the house's cd players. Now I have an audiofire2 but couldn't test it in a club situation yet so I can't tell. Besides, Behringer is well known amongst pros for their low end quality parts.

Regards,
Björn

 

This may seem unconventional, but for Mac users who have built-in SPDIF ports in their PowerBook, MacBook and MacBook Pro, has anyone used or plugged in a DAC in this port? My theory is that since the built-in port has no issues? regarding latency, I could use it as my master out in Traktor and use the Aggregate Device Editor (like ASIO4ALL on the PC) to combine the built-in sound output with another device like an iMic for headphone pre-listening. This thread got me interested in exploring other ways of getting clean audio for Traktor.

 

i am playing psytrance as well, played historically 320's and switched over to original wav's cause of the same issue you are talking about.

nobody can hear the difference on a small rig when comparing 320's to wav's. but i *know* from my very own experience, that on a good sound system you can "hear" and "feel" the difference cause of the missing punch and often times muddy sound. no need to tell ya how important punch is within psytrance.

so the other day i bought a new internal harddrive with 160gb, ripped all my cd's again and worked for days to get all collection files back on track. but it was worth.

so first time after i did this job i had the luck to play on one of these high end rigs and was so happy with the sound coming out of the speaker's. no difference anymore to the cd guy played before me. I could even prove my own concept within this gig cause it happend that i played a track i was thinking about "f*** this is bad produced it sounds so muddy". when checking the track i realized i had choosen the wrong version of it -the old 320 one-. i could hear the difference immediately

another thing is that i use external mixer mode with my ecler nuo4. i have the feeling that even with the good emulations of the mixer's in traktor that external mode get's clearer sound.

but honestly even with this way of performing, there is still a difference between traktor and cd players in sound. i can clearly hear this always when making transitions and working with kill switches (bass). within cd's kicks are cutting up sharp and precise, within traktor kicks are sometimes mashing up a little bit. would say not serious but still noticeable.

so going ahead with wav's is imo the correct decision.

btw. i am using an emi 2/6

 

I'm wodering if the EMI 2/6 may be the root of your problems.

I've owned quite a few interfaces now and there can be a remarkable difference in sound quality between cards.

 

I agree with you, but it doesn't seem as if he'd be getting great sound from wavs & inferior sound from mp3 if ALL the sound were going through the same interface.

 

I haven't tried this with the optical out, although I'm pretty sure that should make no difference, but I have used the aggregate device thing with the analog out for master, and a Creative Xmod for monitoring. What I noticed is that very often the built-in output would just stop working after a while in Traktor, while the Xmod would continue playing. The only way to get it back then is to restart Traktor. So in my experience this is definitely not a stable setup.

 

It is definately the BCD interface. It is a very cheap and nasty soundcard built in to save money.

To get the best sound you need a high quality sound card.

Using the BCD sound interface is akin to using the built in soundcard on pc motherboards. i.e will work but won't sound good at all.

A good soundcard can even make 128kbps files sound full and punchy so 320 is way adequate.

 

I'm sorry but if use mp3 don't expect quality...
Hardware is not going to improve or change this...

320 kbps v's 1411 kbps

I've found this is obvious on dance tracks with heavy compression epsecially on the low end, eg Prodigy

 

We don't see you around here much 2kilo - how's the Ableton side of the fence?

 

If you can notice the difference between 320 and wav on a good quality sound interface then more power to you. I can't though so like to make use of mp3

 

More importantly, would the punters notice any difference? Don't think so.

 

I think you will find [generally] the better the sound rig the more you will notice [not a bedroom]...

Yes punters will notice when DJ's change over in the booth if they change formats, they just don't say anything, can't be bothered, why would they [just snigger at you if it's really bad]... I think "would the punter notice" has become a "catch all" for a lot of unprofessional work practises...

I find it bizarre to bang on about the sound quality of various hardware audio cards when playing poor quality audio...Vinyl sounds better than mp3 to me, and is often less metallic than CD's.

Hi Sean, you good mate..?
I've not even been using Abeleton, not had much free time, gone back to some cheap CD decks while I sort out my tunes. Its less stress, grief than using the computers.

 

It's all good here mate!

 

320 kbps is not poor quality audio. Metallic or tinny reproduction from CD is catered for by EQ'ing - rolling off the top end.

In my opinion, many people blame the media when it is simply down to configuring the PA properly for digital sound. If a rig is optimised for phono decks then it will possibly have a setup that emphasises the higher frequencies to cater for the poor reproduction by vinyl of these frequencies. This has the effect of exacerbating or exagerating the high frequencies on CD/WAV when the format is switched using the same PA configuration.

The best course of action is to arrange a sound test on the PA you are going to be playing on. You can then consult with the engineer and make sure that when you play your pristine 320's nothing interferes with them and the setup is optimised for your set. With an optimum digital configuration you will find that the digital media really brings out the quality (or not) of the sound system...