STEMS: condemned to failure?

Negative my friend. It's NOT an opinion, it's a fact that in marketing, if you want something to work there must be a win-win situation for both sides. It's a fact that when there is a win-win situation for both sides it's a guaranteed success. This is marketing 101. The the lack of results proves it as a fact, not an opinion. Because if Pioneer was really interested, they would have implemented it. So obviously it's a fact it's uninteresting to Pioneer unless someone makes it so.

 

Yes, that is correct, that's why I mentioned that it might be added later by Pioneer in a previous post. That's why i'm speaking on the CURRENT STATE of things... But let's assume it gets added later, how does that make NI more aware of the DJ's needs like I mentioned earlier (the adaptability needs). They've dropped the ball on HID, jog-wheel removals, and late library management for PC. It still doesn't take away the fact that as a whole, they don't assess needs properly I find. This stems issue adds insult to injury for lack of adaptability. Only time will tell what will happen with stems...

 

@Alexisk NI has always been addressing whatever pays off the most. I really like your thinking about them not really interacting with other companies first, it could've been an amazing legion and maybe could've made STEMS work

How do you know that NI offered it to other companies who rejected it? Haven't read about this anywhere.

 

I imagine Rekordbox DJ would have been too far down the development cycle to implement Stems in time for release. Given that the Stems Creator Tool was only just released out of beta, it would've been a bloody miracle or serious demand to chuck it within the space of a week or so just before if launched.

My money is on a patch to Rekordbox 4.0 or Rekordbox DJ introducing compatibility for Stems, maybe within a month or two. File recognition for the former and playing using the DJM-900 for controlling the individual stems for the latter.

On a slightly separate note, I'd go with remix decks sets getting a bit of a boost due to Stems, as the two formats complement each other well. If anything, the Stems format itself will make the creation of custom remix sets much easier. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch for NI or someone else to create a tool that facilitates easy development of remix deck sets from Stems files. I could even see a hybrid format that combines both the stems and remix set formats into the one file, with the stems and remix decks parts switchable for each bank so that three out of four stems could be played while the unused stem is performed using the remix deck parts reserved for that stem.

 

Stems!
Just try and Google Stems now, it actually is almost all links to the NI introduction of this format. It makes it very hard to find actual stems.
And a lot of posts and recognition from everyone.
A lot of negative stuff about it only working with Traktor and some bashing on controllers. Which I somewhat agree with.

But the main thing I have noticed is no matter what the gripe, everyone seems to be all for stem use being a very useful way of mixing.

I don't see this as failing, maybe NI won't make as much $ off of it as they would have by marketing.
But I seem to remember the whole point as being open.
Meaning as far as I know NI does not have a patent on the name Stems, and has left the tools to be open source.

So the talk and the Facebook likes and even the negative comments towards NI keeping it all to Traktor to start may just push others to welcome the format.
As far as I see everyone can use it the way they want and no one is going to be able to claim this as a patented feature.(Honestly I am not sure how anyone could claim it as their own anyway.)

No software or hardware developer really has anything to loose by integrating this type of format, in fact just think of some of the future improvements that could happen.

First of course, Stems from artists(plenty of work to be done sorting this out), but I see much better live shows with popular music by collaborating artists and djs. I have been disappointed seeing my favorite Dj not even mix on stage. This format could stop the press play dj, or at least free them to mix more live.

Mappings? Press button or turn knob using filters, effects, cues all in a separate stem parts to keep a certain flow or rhythm. Yes there are many ways to do this but don't knock it till you see/hear what the wizards may conjure up.

Automated stem use in radio and home systems? Horrible for djs maybe! But could open up more people to how music works and even push for more live acts. People like to understand and critique, to do that they need to be familiar, at the moment most people have no idea what a Dj does on stage.

Customized downloads! Maybe you don't and never will make music, but are willing to spend a couple extra $$ to download a mix with your choice of Artist approved Stem parts, hell djs would still even buy whole tracks this way I'm sure.
Or an artist like Skrillex(name drop) releases a whole album that anyone can mix and match then buy, the first artist to do this I bet makes a load of money.

Long drawn out post sorry, but I see a lot of possibilities, not just NI. And maybe not soon, but this could be the gateway to many things.

 

@zephry the thing is that e.g. the skillex could already do this without stems.. even more detailed actually if he e.g. simply put the project files onto a disk.

And yes there is something to lose: time. Which I think is the reason why no other company has invented STEMS before NI did and which will be the reason that Traktor will be the only major software supporting STEMS for the next couple of months I guess.

Just look at how little noise there is about STEMS, nothing's really happening. NI keeps sending these mails about new releases but I don't even know half of the artists

 

Hmmm... The Skrillex example was just an idea of selling a different use of stems available to general public. Like a custom download, I wasn't meaning at all to debate if he or anyone had the ability.
Yeah I guess a company could lose time putting a feature in software, nothing to lose kinda meant they aren't copying or ripping off a feature. I see stem use as sample use or cue points, it's not like Serato copying Remix decks exactly and using the sets from Beatport made for Traktor.

I tried to be as open as possible in my post, it is my take on what could be gained without very much to really patent or worry about losing large amounts of money, much like adding a sample deck and then various levels and uses of the format.
Which I think is the point being missed, it was said from the start to be open and then NI gave out some free and Beatport etc, made some money, which I agree was not much of a kick off, and I wanted more of a range of tracks.
But maybe NI was only willing to try kicking it off, and see who follows.
The only gain in more jumping on for NI would be the content available to keep the hardware use going, to contact and beat down every door, I'm just not sure would have changed the past 3 months any different.

So it's just as is open to who likes, if no one likes then ok.
Door open or 5 years from now someone does it better, either way.

Do you like the idea of mixing with stems?

 

Honestly, mixing with stems is great if it was easily playable anywhere which is almost impossible. With stems, I now would need two different types of files types for adaptability (Stems + regular MP3). That's twice the space if they are all stems. So since you're asking about "what if we only had stems, would we like it?"... There no doubt it's good, but just not practical. I see stems as a step forward towards live production. I actually use stems on beatport to understand the individual layers different styles have in order to build patterns in my head and reverse engineer the feel of each style. For example Tribal will always have an extra percussive tracks, etc... So I view stems as a production extra but I honestly don't see it as a live thing unless it can be used everywhere. The advantages of stems for me are not for live play at all.

 

My biggest problem with STEMS is that we still don't see any waveforms. I don't own any STEM gear but the 8 knobs on Maschine would work amazing for 4 filters and 4 volume faders. Also the 2 integrated displays could show some reasonable visual output (especially on the studio)

But NI being the NI they simply push the F1 as STEM-ready gear and try to squeeze out some more money out of a controller they couldn't replace with an mk2 series yet. I wouldn't mind about them going after money, literally nothing wrong with that, but at least make a new technology like this comprehensible for users..


I am really amazed by the idea of stems and I couldn't wait for the first DnB releases to mess around with but it's still not transparent enough for me. I think smaller companies like bitwig for example might join, but I don't see a slightest chance for serato or VDJ

 

Did you see the interview with the stems developers? They said that viewing the waveforms would take up too much CPU. I'm glad they didn't do it. If they did, then users would be complaining like crazy. We can't have it both ways. I hope they just take their time and fix the bugs.

 

Read this my friend https://www.native-instruments.com/...isualizer-in-2-9-without-a-controller.260342/

 

And from that interview they are working on that apparently in a future update.

 

yes but that wasn't the point. they let us wait hoping for some impatient users buying stem-ready gear before they even know if they want it.

 

But why couldn't they make an "ugly mode" simply up/downscaling the existing waveforms. I hardly know 10% of the STEM releases and I simply want to know what's coming next in an unknown track without having to buy expensive stuff.

And as we see right now, STEMS won't really get any further than we have it right now. No company interested in joining, probably pissed cuz of NI not collaborating beforehand. If what you pointed out to be their plan it really failed. Even popular DJ mags posted more about STEMS before it came out than after. Also the forum here is literally dead, no one gives a f*ck about this format, I think I was right in OP

 

Then buy serato or pioneers new dj program. You hate traktor, move on. Makes no sense DJing with a program you hate.

 

Where did I say I hate Traktor? I love that software but one can express wishes I guess.

 

Working with Traktor for more than 10 years I got the impression that NI constantly shows up with new and interesting ideas - which is correct and appreciated by a lot of users.
The obvious problem is they bring on a new one frequently instead of developing the existing projects constantly further to an appropiate level of quality. So what ImNoDJ previously said about launching a product as a test is something I agree to - but: NI does not seem to react on the result anyway. Positive or negative response appears to be not important for further development....

How often did they miss the "small last step" to make something good really perfect?

 

It's the "small last step" people are hoping for when buying. ofc being disappointed afterwards

 

" Also the forum here is literally dead, no one gives a f*ck about this format, I think I was right in OP"

Actually a forum is not a good judge of anything, take a look at how many downloads of Traktor dj app compared to the forum postings for that?
Or in general any forum compared to sales of most products. In fact if the product works well for most there will be less activity. Forums are mostly complaints and people helping each other.
What would most users even post anyway, so far it is a handful of people debating copyrights and a waveform issue.
I bought the S8 because of all it does before stems release. But so far my go to hardware for stems has been the F1.

Also I think and could be wrong, but most sales of all dj products is to home users and amatuers, who are lucky to have the technology at all.
Not an excuse for any audio company to sell sub-standard products.

You have every right to your opinions, but the mass public is what drives these companies and the desicions or lack of. I am sure you are aware and I by no means mean to insult you, in fact you have very valid complaints.

 

Man I respect what you are saying and I totally agree with you, the sales/professionalism ratio for NI products definitely is a pyramid like you say.

I think you can't really compare TraktorDJ to other NI products as it is something most "Dubstep bruuhh" kids I know bought/cracked and I would count this as "sub-amateur" who couldn't care less about what's actually happening with that software. If there was a forum dedicated to remix decks this would've been 4 times as big as this one. You're right with saying "if it works, no one posts", but even rather "unwanted" posts like self promo can hardly be found here. Or look how little views "playing STEMS on iPhone" has got.

NI sure goes for the masses and as I said there's nothing wrong with it but the effort it'd take to implement minor things people wish for is so little sometimes that it is a shame they don't go for that. You know like on a car for example you could simply add a USB plug by putting an adapter next to your ash tray. But software, in most cases, is something "complete" which is why it's bothering me so much that NI's feedback-to-noise ratio is soo low :/