Stereo or surround from B4II

As I am in the market for replacing my PC speakers it occured to me to ask: is the output from B4II just stereo or is it surround-sound (4.1, 5.1, etc)?

I know that standard mic'ing for a Leslie is stereo but surly a genuine Lesley is early "surround sound" as it throws the sound around the room? Does the B4II emulate this? It would be nice to have a complete sound-field to fill the room.

I currently only have stereo output as the PC uses my Technics KN7000 as the soundcard, utalising the keyboards speakers. I intend to try some of the Logitech high end PC speakers as they have good results without spending a fortune. (This is only a home setup).

Has anyone tried this?

Cheers, Stephen

 

The B411 sound is Mono, a Hammond does not put out a stereo signal nor do real Leslie's receive stereo signals, they are mono. Two Leslie's are still mono, the bass rotor and high frequency rotor do not even begin to give a surround sound effect, although you could do so with a real good sound card. I have heard Leslie's in surround sound mode in concerts before and played with touring bands who used it and it sounds great, a very nice effect if thats what you are after. There is a lot of software that can turn any sound into surround though.
nukeys

 

I really wonder if the previous post is correct in saying the B4II (or B4 for that matter) is mono. While I agree that the original hammond and a real leslie are mono, I think the B4's output (at least if using the built-in Leslie simulator) is actually a stereo output. If I put headphones on, I can hear the stereo separation. I'm particularly familiar with this because I want to use the B4 live with my Bose L1 speaker, which is mono, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a good B4 signal into the L1. I want to use the B4's Leslie emulation, but it loses something (quite a bit, actually) when summed to mono (which I'm currently doing using a VST called BasicStrip). Any other ideas on how to get a good signal to the L1 would be appreciated!

 

I would also say that no matter if B4 or B4 II are used the signal is stereo as long as the leslie is activated.
A surround sound mode is not supported by both models.
Borntob4

 

Hi guys

To funky88: You are quite right that the leslie effect loses a bit in mono, but I have managed to get a rather OK mono version by using only the left channel from the B4 and tweaking the leslie controls (a bit only, not much) on the B4 itself. Summing the channels with VST or by simply summing the sound card outputs to mono in the mixer/amplifier have not produced any better results (opposite actually..).

--gordon

 

Thanks for your feedback and suggestion Gordon. I'll check it out.

 

funky88, you are obviously young, if you are hearing any type of percieved stereo sound from the b411 it is synthesized, nothing more.
I've been playing since the mid 60's and it's only been during the past 20 years that so much sound has been synthesized so well to sound like stereo.
I use a stereo 1/8 inch plug to plug into my laptop when using b411 and all the other synths, it all sounds real nice but not stereo. If you all want stereo or surround sound purchase studio software that turns the sound into such.
nukeys.

 

Sorry nukeys, but the B4/II output is most definitely stereo, and Leslies have been miked in stereo for decades, no synthesis required.

It would be nice if there were a quad version available (4.0) for surround work.

 

It is true that the orgional b3 was a mono instrument. Any outputs from the b3 run into a stereo monitoring unit (speaker, headphones, ect.) will produce the exact same sound on both sides. Its the Leslie Speaker that changed all that. If you mic a Leslie with a single mono mic you will produce a sound much similar to a vibrato but yet its mono. The volume will increase or reduce as the speaker position passes the face of the mic. If you record a Leslie with two mics (one paned left and one paned right) and set them up on either side of the Leslie speaker then instead of the volume level going up and down it will it simply fade right to left. At this point you are in stereo.

The B4 Model is a Stereo Model. Even when the Leslie is not activated this unit has some very very minor stereo seperation. When the leslie is active though you can see obvious setero seperation in the level meter found in most music software. As far as synthesis is concerned... its no matter if this Model uses real samples or if it uses tones and then builds or takes away from them. This software is definatly a synthasizer. The origional B3 was a synthasizer itself.

I do agree with B3K. This is definatly stereo software. As for using surround with the B4, I can't see why you would need it. If you used a plug-in to create a surround sounds field it would simply make the sound 3D instead of 2D. This might be useful if you were trying to make the organ whirl in a circle or to place it way off in the distance of a simulated space. If your looking to add room charactedistices or depth to your sounds it might be more useful to find a good reverb unit.

I know, I know... that was quite a rant and I'm sorry. lol

 

Have you all ever owned a Hammond or Leslie?
I owned three I bought in the early sixties, there was no stereo out put on anything, it was all mono. All the bands were sure trying to wire for stereo, but if the signal isn't you don't have. I sold two of the three Hammonds ten years ago and the other four Leslie's then to.
I to thought the b411 was stereo, but I emailed the techs and they told me it was not, this is also in the instruction manual that comes with it.
I was trying to figure out why my 1/8 inch stereo plug was not working and I was getting a buzzing noise, there would be no noise if the b411 was stereo, so, I have to pull the plug out part way so the mono runs properly.
If you all believe other wise which you have stated you do continue.
Most instrument software is mono, but there is always a way to make it sound stereo.
You do not have to be concerned about trying to convince me, except that whom ever else that reads these posts and does not have the experience I have from very early 60's will wonder.
I had a cousin who had a mid fifties Hammond and Leslie, no connections for stereo, but, two Leslie's. The amps and speakers have always been mono of course. When you build a full sized Leslie as I and many others have there is nothing in the cabinet that is stereo.
nukeys.

 

As a musician and recording engineer I have had plenty of experience with Leslies and with B4. You are correct that a Leslie is a mono sound source from the organ to the speaker cabinet, this is not being disputed, nor am I questioning your experience.

However, it has been standard practice for decades to use two microphones placed on either side of the cabinet when recording, which will create a stereo image due to the differences created by the rotating speaker. B4 emulates this effect.

I have no idea what you are refering to with your 1/8 inch plug - it does not sound like it is functioning properly - but in my professional recording studio B4 is most certainly a stereo instrument.

 

Nukeys,

I can't find any post in this thread that contradicts the fact that both the Hammond and the Leslie have mono outputs. Yet I am sorry to say that the Tech staff must be wrong with regards to the software. It it definatly stereo. If you run it in standalone and go to the setup tap and then to the routing tab within that you can see that there are master left and master right outputs. If you open the software as a plugin then you will be able to see in your track's level meter that there is definatly stereo seperation. That does not mean to say that the Samples used for this software wern't constructed in mono. Mono to stereo conversions can be achieved with all sorts of techniques. For instance recording a piano in mono and then adding a stereo delay with no effect on the right channel and a 9ms delay on the left channel. Now mono has become stereo. Some element of the software makes it stereo with or without the leslie speaker or vibrato turned on. Sorry to beat a dead horse.

-Nick

ps - please let me know what you had to do to get a reply for the Tech staff casue I can't seem to get one at all.

 

Yes, it has been a standard practice to use two mics on a Leslie cabinet, I used to use four the live engineers and recording engineers soon found out why. I was always told it was over kill till the engineers paid close attention to my Leslie's sound.

 

Yes, it has been a standard practice to use two mics on a Leslie cabinet, I used to use four the live engineers and recording engineers soon found out why. I was always told it was over kill till the engineers paid close attention to my Leslie's sound.
No engineer, there is nothing wrong with the 1/8 inch plug, you should know that you can obtain stereo and mono from the same plugin using the same plug. When you pull the plug out a little as I explained and should not have to explain again, but I will indulge you......you get a mono signal....when the plug is in all the way you get stereo unless there is something wrong with the wiring. I go back and forth between stereo and mono as some presets sounds have more stereo synthesis than others.
As I stated, if most of you want to believe the software is stereo knock yourselves out as none of the instrument software is.
This is so much fun, are there any others who would like to add their two cents I am certainly enjoying reading everyone's view.
I wish sometimes I had not sold my last Hammond and Leslie but they take up soooooooooooooo much space and are not easy to move around. I have a really messed back, on disability and almost can't move my lightest board, no big deal.

 

I agree with you about the two channels, but, midi is not stereo. The instruction book states clearly mono, no, I do not know the page and really do not care.
I did email the techs, have not heard anything yet.
Stereo or Mono are not concerns of mine, I have the means to make the b411 sound any way it needs to, quadriphonic, up to 7.1 even. The system sounds real good in 6.1. I only play with a drummer and bass, they love it as I also use Arturia's six synths with three pc's. I could easily do my own thing but I really enjoying jamming with others. The real thing, Hammond and Leslie do sound so much better that you would never touch the b411 again. I played a set up the other day and couldn't touch mine for a couple of weeks. There's the quiet hum of the Hammond and this huge cabinet moving air with two rotors, wood sounds unbelievable, everything vibrates when you turn the high speed on and crank the expression and volume.
Nuff said.
nukeys.

 

NuKeys,
I have to jump in and agree with most that disagree with part of what you say and disagree with other parts you say. Yes you are right, (has been said over and over) the B3 only has a mono out if that is all you do is try to plug the B3 in and get anything other than mono you cannot. But that does not mean that B4 is mono. Exampl. Everyone will agree a regular electric guitar signal is mono. Multi effects boards do this internally to give you stereo presets, but I am explaining this externally to make it more clear what is happening. IF you go with your analysis of the B3 and plugged the elec gtr straight into a mixing board no matter how you sub group it or route it you will still end up with a mono sound if that is all you do. But if I take that guitar signal and run it to two channels and pan them opposite left and right and take the left channels eq and roll of lows below 200hz, add a large room verb, and chorus to it, and then take the right channel strip's eq and boost the signal around 1k, and 800hz, add a spring reverb, and flanger to that channel, and add a delay delaying the right signal by 10 milliseconds then I have taken a mono instrument (electric guitar) and made a stereo instrument out of it. All stereo is, is the ability to move instruments to different places in the left right sound field whether this be different instruments or a copy of the same instrument with differnt things done to it. And this is what B4 does with it's leslie. It takes a mono signal, pans it left to right to left and so on, and also uses filter modulation to brighten and darken the sound as it does it to add to the realism of a leslies true doppler effect. You can tell it is in stereo simply. Put the outputs of B4 into a mixer. Pan the two channels hard left and right. Listen to the leslie effect. You hear it getting loader in right ear as it pans to that side and then louder in left ear as it pans to that side. Now turn both pan knobs straight up and down in center to get a mono sound and listen to same thing and you will hear the sound level go up and down evenly in both ears at the same time. The first of these can only be done in stereo the second is true mono.

 

NuKeys,
I have to jump in and agree with most that disagree with part of what you say and disagree with other parts you say. Yes you are right, (has been said over and over) the B3 only has a mono out if that is all you do is try to plug the B3 in and get anything other than mono you cannot. But that does not mean that B4 is mono. Exampl. Everyone will agree a regular electric guitar signal is mono. Multi effects boards do this internally to give you stereo presets, but I am explaining this externally to make it more clear what is happening. IF you go with your analysis of the B3 and plugged the elec gtr straight into a mixing board no matter how you sub group it or route it you will still end up with a mono sound if that is all you do. But if I take that guitar signal and run it to two channels and pan them opposite left and right and take the left channels eq and roll of lows below 200hz, add a large room verb, and chorus to it, and then take the right channel strip's eq and boost the signal around 1k, and 800hz, add a spring reverb, and flanger to that channel, and add a delay delaying the right signal by 10 milliseconds then I have taken a mono instrument (electric guitar) and made a stereo instrument out of it. All stereo is, is the ability to move instruments to different places in the left right sound field whether this be different instruments or a copy of the same instrument with differnt things done to it. And this is what B4 does with it's leslie. It takes a mono signal, pans it left to right to left and so on, and also uses filter modulation to brighten and darken the sound as it does it to add to the realism of a leslies true doppler effect. You can tell it is in stereo simply. Put the outputs of B4 into a mixer. Pan the two channels hard left and right. Listen to the leslie effect. You hear it getting loader in right ear as it pans to that side and then louder in left ear as it pans to that side. Now turn both pan knobs straight up and down in center to get a mono sound and listen to same thing and you will hear the sound level go up and down evenly in both ears at the same time. The first of these can only be done in stereo the second is true mono

 

Sorry for double post. Accidentally hit submit button again.

 

russellkeys and everyone else has done such an outstanding job of detailing why b411 is stereo software.
Of course it is, when writing software you are only limited by your imagination. There would be only one channel if it were mono. I run two Roland 550's on opposite sides of a room in my home and you would think there is a Real Leslie in there with just one 550, with two the rotor sound is Wow.
I asked the NI tech's, they stated of course the b411 is stereo, it is supposed to be.
My Professor designation is real, I have a doctorate in music and have taught at several universities.
nukeys.

 

Not to mention page 65-66 of the B4 II manual clearly states that the stereo outputs get different feeds.

NOTE: If you want surround you could come close to the correct effect by delaying the stereo channels at 1/4 the Rotor speed and using L, L-delay, R, R-Delay (going clockwise around you.) Unfortunately this would be a wee bit fiddly as Leslies change speed and Bass/trebble can be different speeds. Though you might get by with it still.