Suggestions for Ableton path (Stem, Remix Decks, Live Looping)

Ableton is the first to make in the classic DAW, the mode of playing clips.
Looking at the Traktor (remix decks, step sequencer and stem), it is obvious that the traktor developers were inspired by the idea of bringing mechanics from Ableton to the Traktor. I propose to follow this idea and improve existing functions that will allow new experience in DJing and take the next step for the Traktor towards creativity and innovation.

Imagine that you created a track in Machine 2 or Machine +, and then you simply saved it in the Stem format and dragged the deck into the traktor. In the traktor deck, you can unfold the whole finished track in the opposite direction and easy manipulate groups, effects, patterns, scenes, midi notes. You will can control all these parameters in two tracks in the same time on traktor controller. It’s like two hardware maschine+ (only dj version with jogs, pitch, eq, etc)

Suggestions:
1. Ability to put loop on separate tracks.
This will add a very large space for creative mixing.
2. Three new mode for stem
Clips/Patterns

Step seq.

Scenes

Audiowave

3. Increase the stem to 12 channels.
4. Upgrade Stem file
Would be good if you implemented on stem these parameters as:
- scenes (hot cues)
- midi notes
- patterns (clips)
- 12 channels
- automations
for change them in live perfomance in traktor
5. Inplemented Creator Tool to internal Traktor and Maschine 2 for import/export operations in stem file.
Any changes in the stem file in the stem deck in the traktor can be saved in the stem file and these changes can be transferred for further work in the machines 2.
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/export-groups-projects-as-remix-sets.324967/
I propose to integrate the stems creator into the traktor and maschine 2 itself. It must be a built-in tool.
6. Add Neural Mix Algoriddim (live stems)
https://www.native-instruments.com/...ck-separation-like-stems-but-realtime.422843/
https://www.native-instruments.com/...-deck-player-so-that-it-has-stem-mode.432745/
https://www.native-instruments.com/...-step-up-with-instant-stems-isolation.418153/
7. The ability to send stem tracks to different channels of any USB mixer
8. Add Live looping in remix sets (possible record microphones, instruments in remix deck).
Tems decks are well suited to make a live looping function. In live looping, the Boss 505, Maschine and Push 2 are considered good equipments. Stems faders and pads are also good for this. We will be able to record guitars, vocals, drums and other instruments. I think live looping will be easy to implement, since remix sets fit well logically, you just need to make it possible to record live samples directly from the remix section of the deck.

Related threads:
https://www.native-instruments.com/...t-live-looping-and-drag-to-remix-deck.347055/
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/native-instruments-fx-cntr.87104/
9. Ability to create teamplate with prepared effects
10. Add Arangement veiw mode for "Studio mix"

Related threads:
This post was inspired by ramscapri and Wyley
https://www.native-instruments.com/...-in-traktor-pro-3-like-a-project-file.422005/
https://www.native-instruments.com/...r-traktor-scratch-pro-1-release-update.72179/
11. VST Effects/NKS effects
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/effects-should-be-plug-ins.362957/
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/vst-hosting.192397/
https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/vst-support.438445/
12. Remix sets match with tracks
Remix set, I would like to offer the function of linking tracks with a remix set, if we load a track into deck B, then a remix set is linked to this track, it is loaded into parallel deck D. It will be much more convenient to use a remix deck.It’s like one sampler for every track.
13. Record automation and all parameters between Tractor and Machine in each track.
Related thread:
https://www.native-instruments.com/...-feature-suggestion-live-set-playback.267506/

 

I like the concept of the timescale: very handy indeed!

 

With the new realtime tool for spleeting audio (djay and vdj2020) there is no need to create files, just instant mashups but if NI wants to integrate some kind of stem creator tool inside another app, that should be Maschine.

About time scale, it was the old recorded with lots of "remixing" possibilities ditched long long ago... maybe revamp that into the new features for TDJ2 (forget about Traktor Pro 3 now Apple is moving to ARM, NI isn't going to port that but implement things on the new universal TDJ2 until they get enough features to make the split between LE and PRO)... but first it needs to get controller manager which probably not going to happen anytime soon (maybe in 3 years? it will depend on the comercial strategy but NI needs to get some revenue from the Hardware proposal and they are even giving support to mk2 which is good for the users but not so for the money numbers... whose get too greedy can made TDJ2 not enough attractive neither...)

So hard times for almost a year and that's without covid killing the djing scene (and gigs) itself...

 

Thank you KimberlyDeLuxe and Mutis

 

Nice to share thought

 

7. Traktor and workflow

This post was inspired by ramscapri and Wyley
https://www.native-instruments.com/...-in-traktor-pro-3-like-a-project-file.422005/
https://www.native-instruments.com/...r-traktor-scratch-pro-1-release-update.72179/
DJ that he would like to see something like projects in a tractor, as we have in ordinary dav.

I also had ideas that I would like to do some of the settings like normal daws. DJ programs look pretty simple, and have limited capabilities when compared to regular daws.
Why do many people now prefer Ableton? Because at Ableton, we can save the result of our work, do a lot of interesting things. Of course, we have two mixing ways, the first is when we completely plan the mix, the second is when we react to the situation, and both are good and suitable for different situations,
but for the first method, Ableton is now completely ahead of all competitors on the market, both in daw and in dj programs, if Ableton had guessed to include 4 classic dj decks in their view session, all the DJs would have fled to Ableton the same day. But until Ableton knows it, Traktor can take DJing to the next level.
I have always noticed that when I mix in Ableton, I often do interesting and creative things, shorten tracks many times, apply effects, change parts of tracks between themselves, add loops, samples, apply layers for long periods of time. In other words, the Ableton environment is very conducive to creativity,
as well as a deeper study of your idea and mix.

For our purposes, obviously, it would be convenient to use the arrangement window, where we could add samples, automation, edit tracks, make our own effect chains and be able to save it.

 

You are talking about The Mixtape...


but where Serato failed it could be possible to go forward (in fact Serato is doing it integrating step by step The Bridge/Mixtape features into SDJ such as Flip or developing Serato Studio and Sampler) and even it's possible to add those 4 decks (or infinite) with software like Stagecraft Scratch Track Plugin.


I even suggested in the past implementing some kind of "scratch deck" inside Maschine so you can do something like this from turntable control... but I doesn't expect any development in that direction. First all the software has to be compatible with ARMacs coming this fall and the whole 2 year transition we are entering... so additional features (and those so "futuristic", well more than 15 years old truly, hardly will be a priority IMO).

Then you have the spleeter technology getting over the failed NI stem proposal and that route pushing harder and probably a most desired (and understood) feature. Scratch control can be the extra "value proposition" against Ableton but in fact all of this could have been implemented directly in maxforlive (or native Ableton plugin like Looper) long long ago (the proof of concept were the maxforlive Ms. Pinky devices available and commercial... ask me for the last point if you are interested).

So, there is a lot of room for improvement but NI has to clear the house properly first which I understand is happening right now...

 

Thanks a lot, Mutis for these videos, this is very close to what I would like, DJing is really ready to move to a new level, and I hope we will have time to see it

 

Sadly I was trying to make understand people these ideas from 2003 and even participated in some projects to make them happen but brands have their own "to do lists" so things could happen or maybe never...

My advice: Use what you have at hand now and enjoy meanwhile technology arrives...

 

yes, I understand, but we will continue to dream, at least, it's just nice)

 

And so, in order to bring Traktor closer to the logic of the Daws, we need an arranger window with audio and midi channels, but this is a rather laborious work, and I think that we can consider a closer integration with Machine 2, and make an arrangement window in Machine 2, with the possibility use this in conjunction with Traktor.
Or maybe even combine Traktor and Machine 2 and make it even better than Ableton? But let's start with something tangible, small improvements that DJs will love.
8. Remix sets match with tracks
Remix set, I would like to offer the function of linking tracks with a remix set, if we load a track into deck B, then a remix set is linked to this track, it is loaded into parallel deck D. It will be much more convenient to use a remix deck. For example, a DJ can sign cues with the names of loops and samples, where in what place he wants to use certain loops, this will serve as hints.
9. Effects (vst, nks, racks, save)
• We cannot customize any effect and then save its state for later use
• We cannot save chains of effects
• We have no vst or nks effects
Therefore, the effect sections in DJ programs are usually quite sparse if we compare them with Ableton.
I would like the effects section to be completely overhauled and something similar to mixer racks in daw when we can:
• make interesting chains of effects and be able to save their state
• be able to save the state of an individual effect
• the presence of support for VST and NKS plugins will be a big step forward
• Ability to switch between racks (group effects)

Also my idea for fx controller
https://www.native-instruments.com/...ons-for-effects-fx-modul.419499/#post-1969683

10. Step sequencer
- We don't have a step sequencer without a controller (although this limitation is not necessary)
• We cannot save the beats we made in the step sequencer
• We do not have a drum machine mode (as in S4 mk3)
• We do not have a step size less than 1 bar
• We have a single one shot mode, which nobody uses, as it is of little use for electronic music
• Ability to save rhythms from the step sequencer to the remix deck like a loop
• We could make a step sequencer in a deck,
or just integrate Machine 2 in this way


11. It would be a good start if we add the ability to record the mix in 4 channels for more flexible editing later.

12. Edit Mode for cut loops, samples, slicing
https://goo.su/1eKX

13. Ability to create teamplate and projects
• Ability to save racks with prepared effects
• Ability to combine remix sets for each track
• Ability to save beats in the step sequencer

14. Add Live looping in remix sets, according to their interface, stems decks are well suited to make a live looping function.
In live looping, the Boss 505 and Push 2 are considered good equipments. Stems faders and pads are also good for this. We will be able to record guitars, vocals, drums and other instruments. I think live looping will be easy to implement, since remix sets fit well logically, you just need to make it possible to record live samples directly from the remix section of the deck. This is something remotely similar to the Ableton session view in a simplified version.

 

Just to keep discussing this which is almost refreshing (and nice you take time to add pics to your proposals) I will keep those apps isolated or just (ableton) link(ed). Improving some features like the Maschine Deck you put in traktor (similar to my Traktor channel/deck idea for Maschine) and implementing proper "project file" import/export between these (so I agree Traktor needs a full Mixtape recorder that we can "open in" in Maschine or elsewhere if you implement properly the automation and develop a Traktor Plugin for any DAW like Scratch Track).

Said that (again) how I imagine the workflow and how integrate live looping (performing and researching on it more or less the same time than advanced djing) I will say "enhanced loop recorder". In fact it's possible to live looping and remix deck now but it requires too many steps...



...which could be enhanced with GroupTheLoop approach. Essentially a miniAbleton Looper (with clip launch and recording quantisation etc) but lacking of full scratchable option.


Flexible audio routing (in the interface not hide inside preferences) will help to just set a source for each channel or fast switching source as funnel. In iOS that part of Ableton is drove by Audiobus3 and AUM.


The same goes for FX buses... and obviously some kind of plugin isolation like Bitwig does to avoid crashes.


Even it could be possible create/edit that song with full plugins inside Maschine (at studio) but freezed kind when you load in Traktor to minimise crashes and to just focus on the presets you have set in advance. This could be also applicable to Maschine as "Performance Mode" vs "Production Mode" moving resources from on place to another (in memory, cpu etc terms) and giving each user the best tools and performance resources adapted to the workflow in that moment.

About step sequencer inside Traktor it will require new hardware (F1/D2 approach is poor) and I will suggest also a circular GUI instead the lineal Maschine (which is ok for Maschine) so that deck being scratchable will need also "clock stickers",
Something like this:


About stems/spleeting D2/S8 was ahead it's time... they could come back but implementing dedicated fx by stem will be very interesting Ableton-like approach...

For now I can't wonder what else I forget (just recently woke up so I still need to put my brain inside my head) but I hope this inspire you (and others) and NI is (truly) listening to get some of these ideas implemented somehow...

 

I just remember also this...
I was using it sometime (more testing than live acts) which has some of these ideas well implemented.


complete-ipad-control-traktor-yet-one-lemur-template-nearly-everything

Developer was porting it from Lemur app to webmidi but I'm not aware about its success, I just forget about it over years...
https://traxusinteractive.com

 

wow, thank you very much for such interesting ideas, very cool videos. I liked the concept of a circular step sequencer

I also thought to include the data effects in the STEM format, I just don't quite understand how this can be implemented, most likely this can be done only if Machine 2 are made full-fledged and follow the Ableton way, so that all track parameters can be automated. But if we think about more real things today, we need to make a more advanced section of effects with support for VST and controller, which will allow for us to adjust a large number of parameters.

 

Glad to be helpful.
Last time I researched on that (maybe 5 or more years ago) FLAC or OGG or similar format has capability for almost 6 stems (5.1) and data layer AFAIR... so NI just needed to support properly an well stablished file format instead trying to reinvent the wheel (closed) to open later (too much later) so very few adopted which was supposed a new standard (NI stems). IDK how hard will be implementing something like XML (or SML) into that layer but that's why I'm not a coder :/

Buuuut it can be done if they want, probably.

Lots of room for improvement you can see...

 

I thought about how the new effect section of the Traktor might look like, I think it requires significant improvements and should strive to be similar to the racks with VST effects in DAW.
I see it way like this


- VST plugins to make isolated for more stable work (as in bitwig)
- For each plug-in, the DJ will be able to map those knobs himself, which he needs
- Encoders should be with infinite rotation
- Effects that are in cancer have their own settings and save their state after closing, opening the program
- DJ can create many personal racks with different settings of effects, then quickly switch between them
- Hot effects (pads) like a rekordbox,
good for gate, chorus, flanger, long reverb, and many more

How to interact with effects?
- When we are in a certain rack, 8 group encoders work as dub mixing, sends or as the traktor calls group effects, but with their own saved settings
- When we are in a stance with the arrows, we can navigate through each effect separately and control the single effect. This logic will allow us to quickly switch between group and single effects and will encourage creativity.


I also think NI could issue a separate controller for the effect section, something like this:

 

I think it would be nice to add a “Pan” effect like Serato has

 

I like to read old branches, they had a lot of good ideas
https://www.native-instruments.com/...ntergrated-into-traktor-4th-deck.84658/page-2

 

refresh it thread

 

And why not using Traktor and Maschine 2 or Ableton together? I guess, it is possible.