Suggestions

Hi,

I really like the update, the new sampler engine is way cool, I can play 150 voices without problems.

My Suggestions for future version:
- Although the keys are much more balanced now, I'd still like to have an extra dynamic-curve-knob for the black keys only. I have a Doepfer Pk-88, which seemed to have the best keyboard among the masterkeyboards I've tested (no chance for CMI, Fatar, M-Audio...), but the black keys are still a bit too "responsive", IMHO.
- The repedalling is great so far, but if the time distance between release of the key and the pedal pressed is very very short, there should be a bit of the normal sample (and not only the overtone sample) as well.

And I found a bug:
- If I open a Logic 7-song, where AP is used, AP shows the used room-simulation, but the signal is dry. I have to click the room again, and then I get a reverbed sound. What settings does AP give to the host, the exact setting for each parameter or only the used preset?

Regards, Juergen

 

thanks, Juergen!

I noted your feedback and have your bug entered.

we should save all parameters in the host chunk. we will have to see what exactly breaks during reload.


best,
Markus

 

Any feedback on the repedalling comment? I've been paying attention to "pedal catch" for years, and it's still not commonly implemented in sample sets. A good while ago, a number of people were complaining that Kontakt did not allow that to be programmed. This was several releases ago. Is it still a problem?

I'm referring to the property that if you release a key and then push the sustain pedal while the note is in its release phase, the volume of the note is sustained at the volume it was at when the pedal was depressed.

I've done this on an Emulator, and seen it in several dedicated sample pianos. Don't know if it's in Ivory. I realize it's a complicated problem given the use of separate release samples and all, but with scripting maybe something can be done? Or more featureful envelopes? In any case, it does make a big difference in the playing experience.

-glenn

 

Hi,

Be aware that the repedalling work great in 1.1 R2. But the behaviour is more like a real piano that a hardware piano :

In hardware piano and in the first 1.1 R1 update when you repedal while you release the key, you hear a dry tone fade out. it's near the reality but it's unreal. (Roland RD series, Kawai MP9000, Yamaha...)

But the reference isn't hardware piano but real Piano !

In a real piano when you repedal you hear a little the tone but you hear the sustain resonance and sustain tone back. It's the case with Akoustik Piano 1.1 R2 and it's the first great virtual piano that reproduce this real behaviour and behave exactly like a grand piano when you press the sustain pedal in the release of the key.

And in a grand piano with a very good regulated pedal sustain and good dampers, the repedalling time in the release to produce this effect is very very short. (Like a good Steinway piano)

should i record a real grand piano to show the real effect and compare with AKP ?

 

Well, as long as it's enough to make the transitions more forgiving. I usually notice when playing fast sequences of block chords, where the pedal-down and key-up coordination sometimes gets just a little mixed up and occasionally the pedal-down happens just a tiny bit after the key-up.

Real pianos are very forgiving of this, to the point that it doesn't seem to matter a lot. But with, say, "normal" sample sets in Kontakt, if you miss even by a few tens of ms, you get brief silence and a very obvious gap.

-glenn

 

I found a workaround for that "black-keys-problem" in logic, if anyone is interested, I can post the how-to.

Cheers, Juergen

 

Please post your "how to" workaround for us. Thank you!

 

Okay, here it is (thanks to the Logic-User-List!):

1. Open the environment window in Logic and select the "Clicks and Ports" Layer.
2. Create a new->"Mapped Instrument". The instrument window will open.
3. Select all the black keys (Shift-Click), and change output cable to "2".
4. Create a new->"Transformer".
5. Connect the "Physical Input" (your Interface) with the Mapped Instrument (Delete the original cable to "Sequencer Input"), the first (upper) output of the Mapped Instrument with the "Sequencer Input", the second output with the "Transformer" and at last the Transformer with the "Sequencer Input" again.
6. In the Transformer choose a exponential curve for the velocity, and a factor of, let's say, 1.3.

That's it!
I've got the german version of Logic, I'm not quite sure if the names are exactly the same...

Cheers, Juergen

 

AKP sustain samples are different from Sampletekk sustain samples, for example, because Sampletekk's ones contain the full sound, not only the piano resonance, and don't need to be added to dry samples.

I agree with this because AKP sustain samples only reproduce the piano resonance when sustain pedal is down and they have to be added to dry samples to get the full sound. So if we only play these sustain samples when repedalling, something is missing.

Here are mp3 examples to explain what's wrong when we repedal a bass note for examples.
repedal bass note bug (it doesn't sound like this on a real piano)
(Here is the midifile)
And now with mp3 with corrected nki : repedal bass note OK
I've only had to add one line in script and here is the new default ConcertGrand.nki.

Xavier Bidault

 

Xavier, cool. I can't download the examples right now, but I assume it sounds good Do you have any sort of "official" connection with NativeInstruments? Any chance you can get your fix up on their website?

Also, how hard would it be to also fix the other pianos in the same way? I don't actually own APno yet (been burned enough times, I'm being careful I know what I'm getting this time), so maybe they don't have the same problem...

-glenn

 

Cool Xavier!
One question: is the repedalling sound a mixture of the pure and the overtone sample, or only the pure sample?

-> Markus
I've found another bug, I hope you can reproduce it:
In AP select "Steinway", switch off reverb and set "Release Resonance" to "strong". Now play loud staccato notes from C1 (assuming C3 is middle) downwards. From A flat on the "Release Resonances" are cut off after two seconds, or fade out too fast.

I've uploaded a couple of files that demonstrate it:

the MIDI-File
http://www.nana-productions.de/special/AP/AP_ReleaseProblem.mid

my render file
http://www.nana-productions.de/special/AP/AP_stacc.mp3

and the "Release Resonances" only (done in Logic with phase elimination and boosted by 24dB)
http://www.nana-productions.de/special/AP/AP_resonance_pur.mp3

Cheers, Juergen

 

Hi,

And yes, i's more real for repedalling, because i me REAL GRAND PIANO i don't hear any dry samples when i repedal.

Last month i was in the Hall of Steinway France (http://www.pianoshanlet.fr / 78 near Versailles/PARIS).

I've played 3 Steinway B and 2 Steinway D. The sustain pedal was good. When i repedal in the release , i hear the soundboard resonance - not a dry samples -

If we go to the previous version with DRY samples it's a step backward.

And in a good regulated Steinway , sometimes you don't hear the repedalling effect because the Sustain pedal and damper are very good regulated. !)

I don't want that AKP behave like over sample library, but like a real PIANO !

 

Hi,

i've programmed the overtones, nothing to do with the samples for repedalling.

Totally agree with you, the release can be improved. I've already done a improvement for a next AKP update.



Regards,

Olivier

 

Hi Olivier,

Did you listened to the mp3 "repedal bass note bug" above? Don't tell me it sounds like this on a real piano. It could sound good if there were many "sustain" layer, but there is only one in AKP. And AKP was build like this (to save disk space), to always use dry samples, and to add the extra resonance when sustain pedal is down. So you have the timbre following the velocity and the extra resonance : no need to sample all "sustain" layers.

Previous version was only using "dry" samples. Your one only uses the lonely "sustain" layer. And the one I shared use both. That's not a step backward.
In all case, my piano teacher (who plays on Steinway, Fazioli...) told me that if he buy AKP, he will use the nki I shared because this "repedal bass note" bug is a show stopper.

 

Hi,

Oh my god a show stopper !

lol

So i've to record a real grand piano and post mp3 here to explain more what i try to explain !

 

Hi,

If it was a show stopper, why you don't tell about it while the beta developpement, while i've worked 10000... hours on AKP ?

i was in contact with you whitin the developpement.

Dry tones for repedalling is unatural for me, and the sustain effect more natural more like a real piano.

But don't worry ! it was well programmed and you had just to change one line in my repedalling code to add dry samples !

as soon a can reach my real grand piano i will post mp3 of a real piano and repedalling !

 

To all haters of showstoppers:

As I mentioned in a post before, I think the "repedalling sound" should be a mixture of the normal sample and the overtone (or whatever you call it) sample. And the balance between these two samples should be set by the time distance between key released and pedal pressed.

Like this:
Very very short time: 80% normal sample and 20% overtone sample
Very short time: 50% normal sample and 50% overtone sample
Short time: 20% normal sample and 80% overtone sample
Significant longer: 0% normal sample and 0% overtone sample (referred to as 'silence' ;-)

This would make the repedalling sound very 'lively' and would come very close to a real piano, IMHO. Because the longer the damper is on the string, the more the lower harmonics are damped, because they have a bigger excursion (what's 'Auslenkung' in english?) than the higher harmonics.

Or have my ideas of physics gone mad?

Cheers, Juergen

 

Hi,

"
Very very short time: 80% normal sample and 20% overtone sample"
.....
Short time: 20% normal sample and 80% overtone sample"


it's an great idea and i can do this easily because the script code is aleady well programmed for the repedalling.

write me at frappier.olivier@wanadoo.fr, so i can send you a .nki that let you to test your idea !



Olivier

 

hi,

i've done a mix between dry/wet in repdalling to make all happy :

finally, i post it public because X. had posted his preset :

http://www.audio-light.org/ConcertGrand V2.1111_alpha.nki

you hear dry only if you repedal very very fast and less when you repedal slow but you still hear the soundboard resonance while you repedalling and it that the more real and more important

i've done modifications in the release keys too !

please check

 

This on-the-fly development is great. It sounds like the Concert Grand (is that the Steinway? My AP is on order so I don't have it yet) is getting some nice attention.

But are the other pianos falling behind? Or are you (or somebody) incorporating these changes into the Bose and Bechstein pianos as well?

Markus, how does this development relate to the AP product? Will the changes be available as minor upgrades to AP? I'm assuming that for now, we need to run the nki's in Kontakt, correct?

-glenn