The 'Kore Owners who have Crossgraded to Maschine' thread

Hi folks,

One or two Kore-owning members of the forum suggested this thread so I thought I'd start it.

I took advantage of the crossgrade pricing and ordered Maschine late on Monday night. Very impressively, it arrived here in the UK 48 hours after it left NI in Germany.

I've hardly had any time with it so far and will post my initial thoughts later in this thread, but the idea of this thread is for people who own and love Kore and have subsequently crossgraded to Maschine to give their thoughts on the new purchase. This can hopefully help other people who are considering the crossgrade.

What I'd like this thread to NOT be for is for discussing the rights and wrongs of Kore going - we all have our opinions and these already have a 1400 and counting thread going for them. And this thread is also not for Maschine owners to say how great it is and to get over ourselves

I know I'm in no position to make any 'rules' - this is an open forum I just think it'd be good to keep this on topic and structured so as to positively help Kore owners with their informed choice and in the event we manage it then everyone should benefit here

I know lots of folks have written off the crossgrade idea as it's not for them and that's entirely fair enough - this thread is not here to persuade anyone! It's just here for those who are considering what to do and need objective and honest thoughts on the subject. So can I suggest that, if you have an opinion to post here, you tell everyone:-

1. How long you've had Kore / Kore 2
2. What kind of things you use Kore for and what kinds of music do you make?
3. What instruments do you currently play?
4. What you are hoping to do with Maschine
5. Being a Kore owner, what things are you liking about Maschine and what things don't you like so far..... How can Maschine evolve to make you happier?
6. Anything else relevant

If we do it this way, those reading the post will know how closely they relate to the reviewer. Of course, after the initial thoughts are shared then any discussion / questions / updates can be entered into.

Does this sound OK? Any thoughts on improving the format gratefully received

 

Excellent idea, and if by some miracle people actually follow the thread guidelines (I'm not comfortable with the word 'rules' but I do think it's perfectly reasonable for a thread starter to state the general idea of the conversation he/she would like to start - indeed, it might be helpful if this happened more often!) it will be a discussion that could be very useful to me and I would imagine to a number of other potential Maschine-crossgraders. So I'm in support of your propositions!

 

this is a very good idea and i echo with the 'rules' outlined by Gary_W

i would like to think that long time Kore users - i was there at the beginning - and long time Maschine users - i was also there at the beginning - would be allowed to share their knowledge and experience but without coming on as fanboys.

i would also like Kore owners to provide links to tracks/pieces of music that they have made with Kore. surely you guys and gals have Soundcloud accounts?

i would also like to think that this could be a thread where Kore owners could ask question about Maschine.

sowari

 

Of course, I think that the opinions of long-time owners of both products would be perfect here - I think if the format suggested in the OP is loosely followed then everyone can see the kind of things we all do and I agree about the soundcloud accounts.... again, it shows the kind of music that a person enjoys making and how they are doing it

 

I've had Kore 2 for ages, and love it as a sound design and also sound-finding/catalogging program. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't spend an age using it to design my own sounds, I tend to browse presets a lot and tweak them a little. Same product, different use. I saw the phrase "instant gratification sound packs" on the main discontinuation thread and yep - that's what they are/were and for me that was a good thing. I don't have a tremendous amount of time to spend designing sounds so sound packs were perfect for what I wanted. OK ... now I have no credibility left as a proper musician let's move on to Maschine!

I didn't actually crossgrade to Maschine, I bought it just before I read Kore had been discontinued and there was a crossgrade offer which was annoying but not the end of the world.

I have to admit, I love Maschine. Not for it's sound browsing or potential Kore-alike functionality, but because it's FUN. I can lose hours just sitting around laying down beats then adding basslines etc without even looking at the PC/Macbook. In a way, I find it more like sitting around with a guitar and a simple recorder like a MicroBR rather than using a computer.

I'm probably not a typical Maschine user - I'm over 50, played guitar/bass since I was about 12 and also play keyboards in a couple of local bands. My use of computer music software/hardware is purely for fun, I don't have to justify it as improving productivity, workflow etc. My only real concern is whether the wife notices new stuff appearing or not

ok ... onto the questions!

1. I've had Kore since Feb 2008

2. I use it for sound browsing, tweaking and organisation

3. Guitar, Bass, Keyboards, a little Sax

4. I'm using Maschine as a new way (for me) to lay down drums/bass/sounds

5. So far I'm happy with Maschine, but that's probably because I bought it to complement Kore, not to replace it

Mike

 

I think this brings up an important point. There are some great sound designers who are decidedly not musicians, and many musicians who have no aims of designing sounds, but there is nothing wrong with either. A concert pianist or a Flamenco guitarist or blues harmonica player are all very much musicians. Producers probably lean more heavily on having unique sounds that are 'of the moment,' but well written/performed songs are going to have more shelf-life, IMHO than something so dependent on a particular sound or effect.

That said, I tend to fall in your camp - I want sounds to inspire me and with such a massive number of crowd-sourced sounds out there, I find it more efficient use of my time to find and tweak existing sounds than try to envision and create something new from scratch. I'm letting the pro's in the design side do their thing and the results are better than what I could come up with, and I can concentrate on the music side of things. This is why I became heavily invested in / dependent on Kore - browsing tens of thousands of patches across dozens of VST in a centralized, standardized interface sure beats randomly dipping into the ocean of sounds.
---
I'm quite happy with Maschine alongside Kore. They do very different things, but Maschine is a great inspiring tool that gives me lots of ideas every time I fire it up. I'm coming from a DAW mentality and still frustrated at how cumbersome it is to then incorporate these pieces I make within Maschine standalone into actual tracks. Song/scene creation is very limiting past a certain point, so DAW integration is almost essential, but the complexity and routing/muting needed to piece it together almost offsets the ease and intuitive and tight HW integration aspects that make the standalone so enjoyable.

 

Thanks, Mike - very nice info. Glad I'm not the only guitar person And thanks also Chaunceyc - very valid points.

So, time to answer my own questions, but please keep in mind I got Maschine yesterday so the best you'll get really is a bit of insight as to why I did it and what my very first thoughts are....

1. I bought Kore in December 2010, so a fairly new user

2. The main things that attracted me to Kore were the library (I bought Komplete 7 and found that I spent more time searching for an appropriate sound than I did using them) and the knobs to tweak the sounds (I don't have another control surface apart from a basic 49 key keyboard). Yes, I've built sounds in it but my main uses are library and control surface. Yes, I know I'm a luddite

The kinds of music that I make vary, but most of it will be centered on a vocal with guitar in there; it's rare I write a song that does not start with this combo though they often evolve into other things. I'm just an amateur that enjoys songwriting and recording as a hobby.

My Soundcloud page is here http://soundcloud.com/gary_w

Please note that I've only recently started writing and recording again after quite some break, so it's only the top 2 songs that are recent and one of those is still just a rough demo. The older stuff on there was recorded 9 or 10 years ago! 'Broken Dream' was done with some of Kore's sounds, albeit presets with no morphy bits or anything. The whole song is only 3 chords 'cos that's all I can manage on a keyboard - go gentle on me I'm writing a fair bit at the moment so hope to post a new song every few weeks. Some of these may well include Maschine if things go OK.

3. Guitar, bass (badly), vocals. My keyboard skills are pretty awful.... it's like watching a monkey with a typewriter. I'm getting better but my brain works much better with a guitar.

4. What I'm hoping to get out of Maschine is a more efficient way of doing beats and to start playing with sampling in a friendly way. I think that you write differently when you use a different instrument.... This is one reason why I am doing my best to improve my keyboard skills but I also think that a product like Maschine could lead my writing in different directions. Oh, and I love a bargain - as I was not opposed to the concept of the crossgrade, it was too good for me personally to miss and if you've read the kind of things I do and use Kore for you can probably see where I'm coming from.

5. I love:-

The size of the two displays and the general way that they are laid out; when you load a Komplete instrument, the 8 macro parameters that you get in Kore are mapped out, but as the knobs are directly underneath the displays it's a lot more intuitive than Kore was due to the display being off to the side. A minor point but I like it.

The knobs feel a bit more solid than Kores, but these ones are not touch sensitive so I'll give it a point for solidness and take one away for functionality

The pads feel nice and solid. I've never had anything like this before so I can't compare fairly with other products

The general friendly nature of it.... it's very user friendly and encourages you to just jump in. Within the hour, I'd recorded and sliced a sample, added effects, assigned it to pads, made beats etc. Not bad going but masses to learn.

Kore works inside it; a few little technical problems which I've had replies about in another thread so I'll fiddle again later

It's easy to build a custom instrument with up to 4 sections and assign it to a single pad. So this is a bit like Kore's builder except simpler.... Kore does not limit you to 4 slots. I'm really liking the built in delays in Maschine so far but haven't got far with the other effects as yet.

Things I'm not so sure about:-

It's plastic. I liked Kore's metal case. It does feel very solid and looks attractive but I'd have prefered it in metal.

The sound library - there are some great sounds in there but the way the library is arranged at the moment is a real step backward vs. Kore. NI have said that browsing functions will be added, but it'll have a long way to go to come up to the high standard that Kore set.

I still haven't learned out to stick all of the bits together to make a song; all I've been doing so far is playing with the features and learning where the buttons are.... Once I'm more used to it I think the scenes / patterns thing will make sense.

The included samples are varied but certainly more of them lean in the r+b / rap style directions than other genres. But that didn't surprise me

Where am I going to put it? That's my problem, but it's another big box that needs a solid base to sit on so you can effectively hammer away at it.... if your desk is like mine, this is a problem that needs considering!


Overall, liking it a lot so far but it'll take me a while to know how well it acheives my aims. I think it will do so as, like Mike (above), I'm expecting to use it WITH Kore not instead of.

I'll add more thoughts, good and bad, as I have them. Sorry for the length of this post - the detail freak in me can't help it

 

Sowari most of my stuff is on my website:

Music

http://fingermarks.co.uk/music.htm

Sounds

http://fingermarks.co.uk/music2.htm

and my Tindeck site has some more recent stuff:

http://tindeck.com/users/Monad

but as with my artwork a lot of it I just make for myself and don't always share or even record my output - I enjoy playing and composing as things in themselves

 

I bought Komplete 7 and Kore together about 18 months ago. I bought Maschine last summer. I would not want to give up either one!

I am not into making "beats" just for the sake of making beats. And I don't like hip hop. I had a strong feeling however, that I could still make great use of Maschine for the music genres I'm interested in. I call it an inner vision; the ability to see the possibility of something even when the possibility is not easily or readily apparent on the surface.

At first my struggle was pretty monumental because Maschine is geared toward hip hop. But I persevered by reading the manual. And then by printing the manual, having it bound, and taking it everywhere, even to the bathroom!

Eventually, I began to get a better handle on things. And by listening to the Maschine sample projects, I made a huge advancement. There's some really good stuff in there, especially if you mute the stupid-sounding stuff! For this conversation you may define "stupid" however you like.

Just remember, if you mute the bad stuff, you'll be left with the good stuff.

I have also learned a lot about music theory by looking at some of the more clever Maschine sample project parts; the bass lines, the melody lines, the harmonies, the tonal percussion parts. Maschine has been quite helpful to me, a vocally anti-hip-hop guy. Yes, even when looking at hip-hop songs (like I said, once the chaff has been removed, what's left can be useful and educational).

Another part of the struggle for me was that Maschine as a VST instrument is very much a "black box" inside of the DAW. By "black box", I mean that you can't see anything inside it from the DAW project/arrangement view. What you get is a seemingly empty MIDI or instrument track and one or more audio tracks that have no wave forms inside, no content to visually see and work with in the DAW.

And to change something in Maschine VST, you have to go to the controller (not convenient to me because it sits off to the side, away from my mixer controllers) or open the Maschine VST interface in the DAW. And the Maschine text, controls, and especially the knobs (in the screen interface) are too small. No onscreen elements are configurable. I was forever poking and picking at tiny volume and pan knobs to adjust something in Cubase or to silence some stupid buzzy sound that sounded more like a body function than a musical element; all the while my three Mackie mixer controllers sitting there unused because what's in Maschine is in the black box!

Ugh, that was fussy, fiddly, and aggravating!

The options for exporting MIDI or audio from the Maschine VST interface into my DAW are decidedly limited. Only the current scene gets exported. Only Cubase and Nuendo allow routing into an audio track which can be recorded, but to do that you have to play the whole project from beginning to end...and every Maschine group ends up on the same audio track. Yuck, what a mess!

So looking for a better way to work, I thought I'd try trashing the whole idea of loading Maschine as a VST inside of Cubase, Nuendo, or Sonar. I decided to try working with Maschine Standalone at the beginning of my creative process, then just simply export my groups as audio tracks and then go to my DAW and import those tracks as stems into my "Cubendonar" (my word for generic Cubase, Nuendo, or Sonar).

By doing this stuff in Maschine, I get no benefit of having the MIDI parts inside of Cubase, which would mainly be the ability to swap instruments later. That is a drawback, so if I have a musical part that I might swap later, I won't do it in Maschine; I'll do it in the DAW instead, so that I can have a simple MIDI track along with the audio track.

In the long run, I found this way of working with Maschine to be a lot better. Now I work with Maschine in the beginning, saving the project as I go, with a name different from the factory sample projects. When it's ready to go into the DAW (for parts to later be added), I begin the process of splitting elements into separate Maschine groups so that I can generate my audio track stems. In a way, this forces me to commit to what's already been done.

Now as I work with the stems in my DAW, I can add automation for volume, pan, effects, etcetera. Minor changes can be made without going back to Maschine. And even if I do decide to add or change a Maschine part, I just go back to Maschine standalone and work that part in, then export again and drag that single new or changed audio stem into my DAW.

Personally, I think Native Instruments should promote Maschine for music styles OUTSIDE of the hip hop and DJ genres, because Maschine truly does have a lot to offer. I'm convinced that for all of Native Instruments' pushing and shoving with Maschine (ie, lukewarm "crossgrade offers"), the company doesn't give Maschine all the credit it is due. By not speaking more about the possibilities for use in song structure and/or for genres other than hip hop, they're not doing justice to this great product. In this way, I see similarities between Maschine and Kore and I think this is a marketing mistake.

Proper promotion of Maschine as a flexible tool for ALL music styles and genres would definitely extend the life-expectancy of Maschine. If they don't do this, I'm convinced that we'll be looking at a Maschine discontinuation inside of 10 years.

 

@BIF: A useful and informative piece. And I think it was the final straw to put me off Maschine. My fear if I got Maschine was that I would end up having to work to find a way to make it work, rather than it quickly becomming a piece of kit that opened new doors (almost on its own). It looks to me as if you've done just that. It seeems that it was impractical to work in the way you wanted to so you had to change your method of work to fit Maschine in. To me, this is gear dictating to an unholy degree.

I was really hoping that Maschine would add to my creativity. It looks as if it simply adds to the amount of work to be done.

I know it's 'horses for courses' but, after a number of weeks of looking and reading and more mind-changing than my wife in a shoe shop, I think I'll settle for my current work flow.

 

Hi Schrage:

Well, my intent was not to put anybody off of Maschine and I'm sorry if I did that. Certainly, the struggle was there, but in the long run it has been worth it. I would not want to give up Maschine.

I feel strongly that any good struggle is usually worth it to some degree, and for me it's a matter of just having a vision of what could be. Or maybe not even a specific vision, but just a vague inkling of an idea. The important thing for me is to recognize when a vague inkling might just be something more than a brain fart becuase the end result could be far more monumental and life changing than even I might expect.

Think of all the things we had to do or learn in order to get someplace in life. Just a couple of examples:

Learning to read music. For those of us who can read music, this skill is invaluable. People who cannot read standard score might be musical geniuses but they will always have to contend with a form of illiteracy, and that will present untold challenges to them in their learning process. And in their ability to TEACH their genius someday to others. When I learned to read music, I had to learn it the way people have been writing it for hundreds of years. It took time, effort, and I could not decide to do it my own way and be successful.

Going to school for my college degrees. My degrees are far more than mere pieces of paper. They have CHANGED me as a person and they have helped me to become successful in my career and in my life. Eight years of post-high school have made 30 years of my life better. An excellent payoff in time and money. But this too, I had to learn to somebody else's rules and even play by their own schedule, sacrificing college football games because I had to do labs on Saturday afternoons or foregoing sleep because I had to attend classes late at night.

Learning how to drive a car. Aggravating and even dangerous at times. Violation of the rules comes with possibly grave consequences. But the ability to drive has given my life untold amounts of freedom and enrichment.

Maybe those are not the best examples, but sometimes we must learn software too. In life, not everything is "plug and play". I hope you will reconsider your stance.

 

Hi BIF:

I hope you don't think my comment was negative towards you or your piece. On the contrary - I didn't read your piece as a 'put off' on it's own - it simply confirmed a few fears that I already had about workflow.

I am a 'time miser'. Let me explain as briefly as I can:-

My parents DETESTED music. I was not allowed any form of music in the house. In my teens I had a part time job and bought myself a flute. I had to hide this under a bush near my home. The school I went to offered NO musical education so I taught myself to play. I had only Saturday afternoons when I could grab my flute and 'escape' to the mountains to practice. When I was 16 my father became ill and I had to leave education to support the family. For most of my life after this, I was a working, single parent of 3 kids (two wives who wanted babies but not the responsibility of kids). Music was done in the odd, snatched moments - and most of it was done with borrowed instruments as I'd had to sell all mine to pay bills. Those moments were so incredibly precoious. As a result of all this (and far, far more) I find it difficult to embark on ANY time-consuming project that will NOT result in a piece of music. Learning Maschine would, I fear, be such.

I'm currently learning to read music as I fully agree with your description of 'illiteracy'. A composer of my acquaintence descibed my music as "extremely sophisticated - even though you don't know it". I 'hear' how I want my music to go but then I stumble as I have not the education to work it through. I'm currently trying to remedy all that.

Sorry for the autoi-biog. I simply wanted to explain how your piece was NOT regarded in a bad light. That said, I'll probably change my mind again tomorrow.:lol:

PS. And, no. Those were GREAT examples.

 

Respect, man; nothing but respect. You understand the value of hard work, and I commend you for persevering. I am thankful that my parents both encouraged us kids to learn and play music, and I tell them that several times each year.

 

hi Bif, i have enjoyed reading your posts

a couple of points. Maschine has a large selection of samples that could be described as 'Hip Hop' but there are also a large selection of House, and Techno samples as well. Moreover there is a load of Guitar Loops that are clearly Blues and Rock licks. one of the Maschine update Libraries has some Abbey Road kits that are very much Rock and {op style kits. many of the keyboard and bass sound fit all kinds of music.

the Maschine Controller is really needed to get the best out of the Software, so please try to get used to using it because you will be missing out on quite a few things if you just use your Mouse. i suggest you follow and do what is suggested in the Getting Started Manual before you use Maschine in a DAW.

if you do want to use Maschine in a DAW, there are different viewing sizes.

in a DAW, you can record Patterns into Maschine and you have a choice of Dragging n Dropping the Patterns as Audio or MIDI into your DAW.

Moreover you can actually treat the Machine Software as typical Software and record MIDI into your DAW and have that MIDI trigger Maschine Sounds. to get this to work properly you do need to use the Sounds To MIDI Batch Setup feature though.

but yes, it is a good idea to get used to using Maschine in Standalone Mode before using it in your DAW

sowari

 

I completely understand the 'time miser' comments - making music is a fabulous hobby that we share here but it does take an awful lot of time and effort.... We all want to improve our skills and deciding which direction to throw the limited resources we have is hard. All of it has the potential to be worthwhile but obviously we don't want to waste our time and resources on doing something that won't help the overall product.

I very much appreciate the comments on this thread so far - they've been balanced and in one case already have helped a fellow member of these forums to make the right choice for them. Making the right informed choice based on individual needs was the remit of this thread IMO so I'm very pleased that it's doing so

A few more little thought from me on Maschine's use....

I've been doing a bit more of my studio rebuild today (well, it's my end of the study but I'm calling it a studio and no-one's going to stop me...). One consideration is going to have to be subtle lighting above the desk for Maschine. Whilst it's got loads of very pretty blinky lights, a lot of the functions are on 'shift' keys..... You press 'shift' and then press one of the pads to do 'X'.

In terms of the workflow that everyone mentions I'm sure this is great in the long run once your brain knows where everything is. What is worth mentioning is that these pads are labeled in white on the black plastic so if you work in a dark room like I do for the most part you are, as we like to say in England, completely stuffed. Very subtle glowy ligthting was on the 'to do' list anyway but just thought I'd mention it in case any other folks here rely on factor 50 sun block and don't 'do' bright lighting.

I started to get used to the pattern based approach last night. The first thing you do when starting a pattern is to tell Maschine how many bars the pattern should last. Fair enough. But it always defaults to 1 bar.

No probs, but for the fact that you've already done a 6 bar drum loop in the same scene and it doesn't seem to obviously tell you anywhere how long each scene is on the display.

I'm also not sure how you would just hit a long evolving note in Absynth (for example) in scene 1 and have it carry on throughout the next couple of scenes.

Please note that both of the above are probably me being silly - just posting random thoughts as I learn it. If I can't find the answer here in a day or two I'll ask on the relevant forum. I too am a time miser and I'm faced with a combination of the user manual and maschine plus the overriding importance of real life stealing most of the available time

On a more positive note, I haven't grinned this much with a piece of musical gear in ages; there have been a few occasions where I've said 'ooooh, that's cool - once I get to know this thing, it's going to be really, really nice....'.

So to sum up so far, there are minor niggles but generally a very positive experience. For me personally, no regrets so far as I'm enjoying the learning experience.

 

As we also say in England (well, Wales in this case) Bugger! This enthusiasm (Gary's talk of 'grinning' - I know EXACTLY what he means here) is getting to me. This along with BIF'S very apposite and thoughtful post, I think I may be changing my mind again.

The Blonde (my lovely wife) has a list of things that Hubby 'desperately needs'. Will there be an addition to that list?

 

btw, you can set your own 'Template' as a default. that includes your desired Pattern length. so you could make template where the default Pattern length is 4 bars.

your issue with log notes lasting more than 1 scene is an issue that many people have and a long standing feature request.

some people would sample that Absynth sound and use One Shot triggering - make sure polyphony is set to 1 note - and the sound would just carry on playing until it finishes. other people would jest create a long scene by duplicating Patterns.

i agree this is not an ideal situation.

sowari

 

I call my working area a studio too, but for some reason the wife keeps referring to it as the "dining room", regardless of the fact that the only things that get eaten in there are hobnobs, crisps and the occasional pizza when she's away!

Mike

 

Are you me? That sounds SOOOOO familiar I can even hear your wife's tone of voice as she refers to the 'dining room'.

 

Is there anyone that doesn't record in the 'dining room'

When we moved here 6 years back, the room that is now the study was the room that the previous owners used as a dining room.... it's a converted internal garage so is nearly 8' wide and 16' long. Meanwhile, the poor guys study was a tiny. He used the study every day, they used the dining room once in an blue moon.

My wife wanted to leave it as a dining room but fortunately we didn't - I work from home and like to make lots of noise in my spare time. One knocked down wall later, we had a 'kitchen diner' and that freed up the old dining room for a decent sized joint study for us both. My 'end' has now had the full rockwool treatment but it actually looks good too - she helped choose the material that all the panels are covered in. I finally get what all the fuss is about regarding sorting out your room - the same old speakers suddenly sound a lot more expensive!

I am now sitting underneath a 2 foot by 8 foot wood + rockwool panel that is treating the ceiling. Clenching - I hope those screws hold