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Traktor Scratch and old FS2 amp (yeah again...)

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by nik39, Apr 2, 2007.

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  1. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

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    7,084
    Ahh, you made it, one would think collecting the _same_ hijacked arguments together to gain some traction would provide benefit or is it that you need your own side argument in order to be able to make your case. In any event here you are, apart from the original argument, is there any new point you want to make? The soapbox is yours, or should we talk about bangladesh getting thrashed in cricket? When I saw it on TV they were 111-8 chasing 231....

    Phil
     
  2. Dijibuddha Magnetik

    Dijibuddha Magnetik NI Product Owner

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    @native_girl
    None of your above post is more than further inconclusive run-around,but I guess NI just doesn't want to have to come clean just to satisfy a few disgruntled users.
    The only thing I can determine from all this is that NI doesn't want to support a previously supported product because they would rather people switch to their new product.So how do other Traktor Scratch Certified products fit into this plan?
    I mean,c'mon!How muchh effort is it going to take for them to write the 15 lines of code to reimplement the SA2 as a supported AUDIO/TIMECODE PASS THROUGH DEVICE FOR TRAKTOR SCRATCH!?

    @Phil
    I assume you were talking at me!?

    Here's my previous post again.\Yes there are some points that haven't been dealt with,so I would consider them new!
    F*ck!What a waste of time shouting at deaf people!:

    ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
    According to a supposedly real person at NI as to why the new timecode cannot support the SA2:
    (first time I ever had a non cut and paste reply from support,and it was still as equally dry and uninformative)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------the answer for this is quite simple: \"Stanton Magnetics has however issued, and never retracted, a legal statement that has forced Native Instruments to remove FinalScratch timecode compatibility from the TRAKTOR platform. The announcement of the \"FinalScratch Open\" program in January 2007 has not relieved Native Instruments from this specific legal constraint.\"
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Could we have some more details as to WHY please!?
    There are still some rather conflicting facts between

    Stanton's Statement:
    http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...1e1f36d6ea8cML

    and NI's Statement:
    http://www.native-instruments.de/ind...c3f3b1&flash=9

    My further email inquires were not responded to.

    This is really what all the conflict revolves around.Well that,and users not being properly informed as to the product being dropped by NI.

    So how about a clear concise explanation of EXACTLY why Stanton says they can and NI says they can't!?
    If anyone can clear this up without skirting around the issue with vague sweep it under the rug inconclusive comments I'll gladly drop this discussion!
    ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

    Nobody has made any effort to answer to this post either:

     
  3. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    If you go to Stantons site, you will see that they themselves have a new project called FinalScratch Open. It's a new open development that will allow any and all companies to develop along side their new concept -> (http://www.stantondj.com/v2/fs/prod_fsopen.asp). Sorry for the link mods, but apparently this guy needs to get a clue.
     
  4. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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  5. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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  6. *FSuser*

    *FSuser* Forum Member

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    You can doubt me all you like just like you doubt and dismiss many valid points and questions that have been addressed on this forum... It only shows your overall ignorance not mine. If you dont want to take me for my word that is fine but I would highly suggest checking yourself when you address me. I have never taken a tone with anyone on this forum including the moderators until one was taken with me. If you would like to go round and round then I am game... but I promise you that will not be in your or the forums best interest. By the way the pope dances like whoa... way to doubt him as well, god bless your soul. lol

    I fully understood your half-assed answers but what I was asking for was more in depth technical explainations as to why this product was superior and what it would do for me. Is that so hard to understand?

    My intentions are to speak up for the many FS2 owners who have now been abandoned and screwed by a company that no longer supports the software of a product bundle we all paid good money for. To be quite frank I would like to know what NATIVE INSTRUMENTS TRUE INTENTIONS ARE!!!! Is NI really there for it's userbase when a "legal" blunder like this occurs... have they given the user's notice on what all has happened? Have they developed their own in house product to directly compete with the product we lost support for? Have they given a fair upgrade path to the new product that made ours obsolete? Have they even given explianations as to why this newly released product doesnt support our old equipment or even explianations as to why their hardware is superior?

    So you tell me who has more ill willed intentions... or who even gives a **** about the little guy who is spending their money on the products. YOU DIDN'T EVEN PAY FOR YOURS SO DON'T SIT HERE TALKING TO ME ABOUT MY MONEY!

    I think the moderators need to seriously step back and re-read for a moment to see why this has unfolded the way it has... you reap what you sow.

    Back on topic... once again.

    Regarding the stated latency differences between Firewire and USB 2.0... I think you should read up a little bit more on the two interfaces your speaking of. Firewire has a much more consistent throughput then USB and from what I have seen has a much better latency. USB is a serial based protocol and therefore the bits of data are broken down and sent in serial then reassembled on the other side. Firewire was designed for large audio and media file throughput... firewire is also much more expensive to incorporate into a product compared to USB.

    I do appreciate the points you have thrown out their Spyral and these are the things I am interested in knowing. I need to see the value in why this product is worth the money spent versus the differences in the two products from a technical and software standpoint. The moderators on this forum would rather detract from the conversation then actually answer questions so it has taken me a little bit. You gave me more reasons in one paragraph as to why this solution is superior. I have and do read up a lot on the products I am about to purchase but at the time of my questions to NI there were no reviews or even users such as yourself who had the product. Believe me I would much rather be touching my decks then messing around on here however I will not just stand idlely by when a company burns me.
     
  7. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    I can understand your frustration, I purchased FS2 within the last year. So trust me I wasn't happy myself. After seeing the responses after Remix Hotel and whatnot though, I was thoroughly impressed with the improvements not only in stability, but with the fact that setup is now 10x easier. As I said before, upgrading to the new setup can be pretty cheap if you do it right, it cost me less than $110. I apologize if I've been rash towards you, however I faced the same frustrations you did. Had I done my research, I probably would have held out for Traktor Scrach instead of picking up FS2. Keep in mind, support for your scratchamp is and will continue to be available, however support for the software will not. Let's put it this way:

    If you were teamed with a company whom with which you had a contract set to expire on such n such a date...and this company waited until the last minute to ask YOUR company to develop new software for their hardware BEFORE the contract date was up...would you not see that as poor business actions? That's like having a school project for 3 weeks, and rushing to do it the last night before it's due. Granted it might come out ok, but it would have been much better if you had spent the 3 weeks you had to do it. Think about it, how much has Stanton really invested into the FinalScratch program? Then take into consideration how much was put into the project by Native Instruments. If you ask me, NI was carrying the dead weight of Stanton. Yea, Stanton is a hardware company, but really, they did not invest that much to keep up with NI. Now NI has come up with their own solution, offer the full package and eliminate the dead weight. Of course you would take more profit over carrying another company on your shoulders. Just a little common sense ya know?
     
  8. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    Also, few things to I'd like to point out:

    Firewire may be a protocol called IEEE1394, but it is still a Serial Bus. It tops out at a speed of 400mbps.

    USB2.0 however may be a Serial Bus as well, but boasts a speed of 480mbps.

    The main key difference between USB2.0 and Firewire is that Firewire is Peer-to-Peer, which means it can communicate without a computer. USB however cannot. Also, USB cannot Bus power high energy drawing devices like Firewire can. I could see your argument if the Scratchamp was Firewire800. As for your references to better latency and whatnot, that has only been proven on older Apple computers, and I can tell you that I've benchmarked USB2.0 and Firewire on my new macbook, and that USB won the readouts.

    I'm sure a logical reasoning behind NI going USB2.0 is not only throughput, but also to better support PC. I would say about 80%+ of PC laptops these days do NO come with firewire support. However they DO come with USB2.0. Mac supports both. So in all reality, I feel that the switch from Firewire to USB was a smart move, since now they can reach out to the crowd of DJ's who use PC.
     
  9. *FSuser*

    *FSuser* Forum Member

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    I have never taken your answers or comments as abrasive...

    I do see your points made and understand your point of view however I see it a little bit differently. The end user should not be the ones bearing the burden of a corporate pissing match. Furthermore the company that removed support for the software failed to even notify the user's of this change which is wrong. There were users who went to upgrade to the latest version of Traktor only to find their control vinyls/CDs didnt work. I dont know about you but I didnt come to find out about this whole fiasco until I was looking into upgrading to Traktor and found I couldnt. I honestly did not get hasty until games were played by the moderators on this forum. What's funny is they are now trying to drag me out into the townsquare for a public stoning... pointing fingers at me when the games originated on their end. I am no newbie to forum gameplay as I have been the moderator of multiple forums including a corporate public forum such as this. I do appreciate your on topic comments and contribution to this subject. A lot of information you have given on just this page alone is what I have been looking for and I appreciate it.

    I originally purchased FS2 because of the software... which was developed by NI. I was at the time looking into purchasing Komplete as well for the production side of what I do. So I figured going with a single Native Instruments software solution would be the best bet. I also liked the fact that I could upgrade to the full version of Traktor studio which supported four decks. I mentioned and explained this in my orginal thread which has since been moved and closed. So my problem is giving more money to a company who has already burned me once. Who's to say they wont do this again in a year from now releasing TS2 and forcing me to purchase more equipment. I mean christ NI Kore was released not that long ago and there is already a Kore 2 out...

    My overall quelm is how this has been handled by NI... the only people who suffer are the end user's who are the ones funding the whole venture.

    Sorry to once again detract from the subject at hand but I wanted to address some things as most have not seen how this all came about due to my original posts being supressed.

    Back on topic...

    I did not mean to get into a debate over Firewire versus USB as I feel both are solid platforms. I do however feel that firewire overall is a better interface from my experience even on a PC. You are correct that the scratchamp does only support firewire 400 which sucks however the data transfers are still isochronous.

    wiki's isochronous communication explianation:

    1. Of a periodic signal, pertaining to transmission in which the time interval separating any two corresponding transitions is equal to the unit interval or to a multiple of the unit interval.
    2. Pertaining to data transmission in which corresponding significant instants of two or more sequential signals have a constant phase relationship.

    The above is why USB 2.0 rarely or never achieves it's theoretical throughput of 480Mbs. I feel that even though firewire does not boast the speed of USB 2.0 it's overall throughput is more consistant and stable. I do however see your logical points as to why NI would want to go with a USB 2.0 solution. I am also glad to hear you are seeing better performace with the A8 using USB. USB 2.0 was intel's answer to firewire and now that we are seeing intel core duos in a Mac as well... this would be a safe interface to go with. I did learn something out of this as I thought firewire was a parallel interface since it was the replacement for SCSI, but even in a serial situation I would prefer not to run on an asymmetrical protocol. I guess it is 6 one way or half a dozen another. USB will probably win out in the end but I still feel that firewire is better for large media at low latency. I mean look at the Traktor certified mixers on the below link... they all sport Firewire interfaces. I would think this is due to the sustained audio and midi throughput needed for all 4 channels.


    http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=tscratchcertified_us
     
  10. Dijibuddha Magnetik

    Dijibuddha Magnetik NI Product Owner

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    Apparently you don't need to look any deeper than the BS that is being spoon fed to you.Good for you!
    Just please don't try and spoon feed your second hand BS to me!
    Oh,and thanks for the links...you know,I didn't even know Stanton had a website!FSopen...wow!I'm enthralled,thanks for the heads up!And yeah,the NI propeganda link,hadn't seen that for awhile either.And FS3...I thought that was already out?
    I AM NOT A ****ING IDIOT!
    This discussion is making me sick of how ****ing narrow minded the average human is!

    Let's put it this way,seeing as how no one else can offer up anything resembling a realistic explanation...

    ...there's currently no such active thing such as a legal statement of Stanton't preventing NI from Providing software that recognizes the SA2,therefore it is obvious that any such statements directly from NI or their mods are being used as a cop-out because NI has rationalized that they will make MORE MONEY by encouraging us to drop our existing hardware and use theirs instead...
    They're lying to their customers to lessen the potential side effects that could be caused be a blatent greedy corporate manoeuvre.

    Or is this hypothesis just all wrong?


    Oh,btw...I'm out!(I really do mean it this time!)
    Enough wasting valuable breath on weak minds and unscrupulous corporations.
    cya'll,and good luck!I'm sure you'll miss me...
     
  11. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    Actually I'm sure after that statement we won't.
     
  12. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    rapedFSuser> I appreciate your kind responses. It tells me that maybe yer not such a bad guy after all ... :p . I can understand how you feel about the idea that maybe next year TS2 will comeout. Thing is, I don't see them changing to a new interface. The A8DJ is pretty solid from my standpoint, and I only see the possibility of software updates. Givin the fact that the A8DJ has 8in/8out, I do see the possibility of controlling 4 decks simultaneously. However, I see this only being done via 2 CDJ's, and 2 turntables as only 4 of the inputs are preamped. There's a lot of room for changes and improvements, but I must stand by my initial review of Traktor Scratch that it is by far superior to that of FS2 and the SA2, in many aspects.
     
  13. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,779
    do you really think stanton would put that on their website??!
    they screwed you and other users - and NI as well.
     
  14. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,779
    after all tech specs of the A8 can be read on the website (AFAIK), i explained the new timecode a dozen times and the new software features several times - yes.

    there's a good place for it: the stanton website. oh, they have no forum, where you can complain? yes, because they pulled the plug from the FS board from one day to the other back then without noticing anyone - be it users or NI. the mods spoke up for the FS users, saying that we need a place for the FS users - and NI invested time and money to keep a FS forum, even when the support switched completely to stanton, NI decided to keep the forum open. it's read only now, but the info is still there. go ask stanton what they did for their users during the last years!

    as much as possible as a company.

    quartz already showed you the respective email. how often will you ask this question again?

    obviously the developement for TS was nearly done when stanton decided to force NI to take FS support out of traktor.

    yes, a very fair crossgrade, as mentioned a zillion times.

    explanations have been given a thousand times.
     
  15. *FSuser*

    *FSuser* Forum Member

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    83
    DiJibuddha I completely understand your frustration brotha however I think they are only looking to ruffle your feathers so they can then point the finger and yell "HEY LOOK AT THIS IRRATIONAL GUY!" once you get pissed. Believe me I have had to take a couple days here and there over the last week to go back to my corner pull out my little stool and and let my trainer get me ready for the next round... ding ding!



    Talk about beating a dead horse... you have spewed the same regurgitated BS answers that have lacked any real detial. I am not the only one making this statement so please just stop.
    A member of this forum who now has had the product a few days and has read the manual gave me more information on one page then I have gotten from you... who "works closely with the developers of this product"!

    I read all of the information on the Traktor scratch system once I figured out it replaced my scratchamp and to be honest I am not impressed with the lack of any real difference in the hardware offering. If the A8 was a 192Khz soundcard I would be impressed but when you look at the side to side comparison of the A8 and Scratchamp the pricetag is hard to swollow. Certianly hard to swollow when I dished out this amount not that long ago.

    http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=tscratchcomp_us&flash=9

    You can play the smoke and mirror game all you like but I can see through it faster then the marketing hype your company also seems to be overly abundant of. The bottom line is this... NATIVE INSTRUMENTS REMOVED THE FS2 TIMECODE SUPPORT AND NOW BARES THE BURDEN OF PROOF! You show me the legal documents you state required the removal of the FS2 from the product. Seems to me NI was the one who pulled the plug not stanton. The above stated e-mail shown by Quartz is absolute marketing crap and I amungst others did not even receive such an e-mail. I am not the only one who has stated they received no such e-mail and it is quite obvious since there has been numerous FS2 users who updated to the latest Traktor version only to learn their timecode vinyls no longer worked. NI kept the FS2 userbase in the dark... period! Dont sit here pissing in all our faces and tell us it's raining out.

    Very fair cross-grade offering my ass... between FS2 and the TS crossgrade offer I would be dishing out well over $1000US in less then a year in a half for a DVS. Again don't sit here talking to me about money when you didn't spend a dime on your Traktor scratch system. I am not just whining I am being proactive about this and am now trying to sell my scratchamp to see if I can get TS for a reasonable price. Even then I only have a month to make the crossgrade offer so if the scratchamp doesn't sell in that time then I am obviously once again screwed out of more money. NI could certianly also show goodwill by giving a fair trade in program but why would they want the paperweights they left us with. I personally don't see any reason I should even spend another dime with NI after all of this and from what I have seen on here... Which is sad considering your company was the reason why I purchased Final Scratch 2 to begin with.
     
  16. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    Well now... perhaps if the behavior matched the words that might be considered true. However presently many who read this thread would assert otherwise... Right or wrong how you act is how you are perceived. And yes, I'm certain people already know what my f#ckwit quotient is, I have no illusions of that.

    Its too bad you cannot put yourself in anothers shoes and then look at what you've written... The very people, users and mods, who could add weight to your argument are dissuaded to help. Expecting a different answer despite it being answered several times already does not constitute expanded consciousness, nor does agressively attacking others on the forums.

    Yes, and its a speculative assertion you are seeking confirmation on, not a hypothesis. People would offer to help but given your hostile reactions, it becomes increasingly unlikely that people would ally to your cause, however noble it might be. At one time i might have done so.


    As mods (N.G. Quartz and myself), we don't set product policy we are not even employees how could we? Instead we try to provide info and help, but if you treat us like the enemy and call us unsympathetic idiots and attack us, we are hardly likely to continue providing you the help you need on the _user_ forums now are we. If anything, we as mods added fuel to the fire in that once this turned this into a mud slinging fest we should have left to your own devices on it. That would have provided the same outcome but without the grief on our part.

    For now though you'll find there are many other threads where we can provide positive help and information and make a positive difference, those are where you'll find our energies directed.

    Unlikely, but accepted nonetheless, Like you I'm out on this matter its been answered already. If there are other specific questions that are related not answered here on is other similar threads then people can email me.

    Some will, I'm sure.
     
  17. *FSuser*

    *FSuser* Forum Member

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    I certianly understand this statement as I myself have dealt with this as a moderator however as has been previously stated... my original posts were not abrasive in the least. I made the mistake of posting in two forums as I didn't know which it would be better suited in. Since then I have only reacted to comments made by members and or moderators. My comments have been moved, removed and my threads closed which has only further escalated my frustration. Beyond this there are multiple other people who feel just as pationate about this whole situation. However don't sit here after the fact stating you didnt play into this downward spiral when valid viewpoints and questions were brought up. I understand you are just doing your job and are really caught in a crossfire, but you do represent NI as a company on this forum. You are also obviously compensated in some manor whether it be product comps such as traktor scratch or test products. I personally would much rather have a civil conversation about all of this then going round and round. I will however step to the plate when a screw ball is thrown in my direction. That being said there was no need for this conversation to reach 7 pages when things could have been easily addressed in a civil manor. As I have previously stated I am a reactor not an actor...
     
  18. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    253
    *rapedFSuser* > As I noted before, if you DO sell your FS2 and SA2, be sure you retain the registration information and whatnot so that the crossgrade offer is still valid to you. If you give up your registration you will end up paying full price for TS, which is MSRP $679. Just makin sure that's understood on your end.

    192khz? You mean 192kbps right? 96,000khz is the highest supported frequency output.

    Keep in mind that the A8DJ does have it's advantages:

    > 10-40 Hz frequenzy response vs. 20-20 Hz / RIAA.

    > More Sound processor support (DirectSound, etc.)

    > Better SNR ratios.

    > Yes the SA2 has a .0005% THD at 1kHz, however the A8DJ boasts .0007% at 2kHz (Line) and .0012% (Phono).

    I'm sure there are more advantages, however, Stanton decided only certain details were important and posted only the bare necessities on their site.
     
  19. Dijibuddha Magnetik

    Dijibuddha Magnetik NI Product Owner

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    @*rapedFSuser*

    Phil was obviously talking at me.I don't think you need to defend yourself here.

    @Phil
    I stand firmly by my viewpoints and have no further comment.
     
  20. Spyral

    Spyral NI Product Owner

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    253
    I thought you were leaving?
     
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