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Traktor Scratch and old FS2 amp (yeah again...)

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by nik39, Apr 2, 2007.

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  1. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I just told this story this morning! I just got a new capture card a couple days ago and don't know all the ins and outs of it yet. I hooked up the A8DJ output and the video camrea and recorded a (hopefully) better qualtiy version of that video for my website review. I got done recording and loaded the new clip up to edit and transcode...

    and it had no sound. I forgot to capture sound.

    I'll have another one done and ready to go this afternoon.
     
  2. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    I still see no advantage to what SSL (the product I own, so I'll be compairing TS with it) offers with their way of reading TC from CD, compared to what TS does? It makes it look like SSL is less advanced on this part, but it appears (from your explanation) that FS2 had problems with it instead.

    Also, you didn't answer my question as to why it's better to have a ground lift that has the option to be disabled. SSL has a galvanic isolation between USB power and audio, so it doesn't have ground loop troubles (I certainly know of no one who had). Why compare it on the option of disabling it?

    Doesn't SSL have a rumble filter? Or is it build not to have any problems with low noise rumbles? I never seen any problems with it, so maybe the TC of SSL doesn't need the SL1 to have a rumble filter in it. Therefor, a rumble filter would be of no advantage for the product hence, the reason it's missing. This comparison looks very decieving to me. People might think that SSL suffers from low noise rumble. To me, it only shows that SSL's way of reading TC is much more advanced instead.

    Sounds to me as if this comparison chart would have been more appropriate (the way you explain it, it makes for sense at least) if it compared TS to FS2, if I look at the points of comparison and what NI (really) means with those. That's my conclusion and I have wondered about it ever since seeing it on NI's site.
     
  3. yagru

    yagru Forum Member

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    Well thats NI marketing for you. I guess we will see how it fares. I think right now any sane non bias person wouldnt trust TS over SSL. I will be receiving mine next week and am looking forward to testing it. Im fully aware that i may end up right around and selling it though if it doesnt live upto the hype.
     
  4. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

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    7,084
    I think you are right. A sane non-biased person will be that very definition: They will have an open mind about the pros and cons and in such cases the only way to know how all this shakes out is to try TS out and see.

    For some SSL will be their weapon of choice or continued weapon and others will decide there is value enough in the TS package and decide that is what is right for them.

    Fierce Proponents on both sides of the fence are going to square-off on this matter and for what? At the end of the day if an SSL user, or 1000 SSL users try TS and have reasonable subjective reasons for staying with SSL then so be it. Same applies to those that choose to go with TS.

    Its purely a personal thing and its also going to be highly subjective to many users. A non biased user is going to hear others opinions but will not let them be _THE_ deciding factor for or against their decision. Same thing applies to the Marketing speak... take the information into account don't predicate your choice on it.

    Yagru is are exactly right. Don't get hooked on hype and fallacy on either side.

    Phil
     
  5. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

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    1,576
    Hi Trat,

    Even though you didn't make a very friendly entry into this forum, here are some detailed answers directly from the Traktor Scratch team:

    • Does TS has a dedicated CD encoder (i.e. why would this be a pro for any DVS - CD control work fine in SSL)?
    The dedicated CD decoder (not encoder) reduces position recognition time, improves backspin behaviour, and allows you to use the built-in loop function of the CD player with a precision down to two CD frames, which no other DVS currently manages to do.

    • What is the 3rd party component of SSL, and why is this important for comparison (i.e. what is the pro of not having a 3rd party component)?
    Traktor Scratch is the only DVS that has all three major components developed by the same engineering team - software, hardware, control signal. It is an important basis to develop and maintain all components with as much coordination as possible.

    • Following up on the above question. Why aren't the Cirrus Logic convertors counted for as 3rd party components?
    Audio converters are generic sub-components that no music gear manufacturer builds themself, and they don't have any influence on the integration aspect of the system.

    • What is the pro of having a integrated Beatport store (i.e. what is the con of not having it)?
    Direct access to the largest online catalog of eletronic music releases from within the software, with in-deck preview, a download manager, and some other functions that the regular Beatport website doesn't have.

    • What is the pro of having an optional ground lift (i.e. why should I care not to be able to deactivate ground lift)?
    Ground lift increases sensibility towards noise in certain circumstances, therefore it makes sense to have the option to deactivate it.

    • What is / does the rumble filter add to the package (i.e. what does it do and why should I care to (not) have it)?
    The rumble filter filters out signal interference from the control signal that can otherwise impair the tracking, especially low-frequency rumble. DJ Quartz already gave a real-life example that you won't be able to replicate with other DVS systems.

    Please try to keep a fair and reasonable tone on these forums. Thanks!

    Regards, Thomas
     
  6. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

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    870
  7. Dijibuddha Magnetik

    Dijibuddha Magnetik NI Product Owner

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  8. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    Word.
     
  9. yagru

    yagru Forum Member

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    lol jeezus does a krk speaker even count.. try in a club next to some subs or under a legite PA sub and then there is something worth seeing.
     
  10. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    What circumstances? You are refering to the usage of the TS amp as a soundcard, right? Please be more specific - very important info for me, since I never had any troubles with my SL1 for the 24 months I've been using it now.

    What other DVS system? My SL1 never crapped out on me and I played with it between a monitoring system that I had to put on so ****ing loud not to be able to hear feedback from the (massive 10.000 people) room? Infact, the booth went so hard, it sounded harder than the avarage 1k people club PA. I had to use earplugs I use during my live-set to keep it up for 2 hours.

    Thanks for the other info.
     
  11. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

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    5,321
    @ Trat

    I already gave you an example of what the ground lift could be used for in my first post.

    Secondly based on your last answer it would be fair to say TS and SSL are immune to low frequency feedback.

    As I mentioned before I had problems with FS2 and bass feedback. I had no feedback problems with TS in the club. Both beta form and official release form worked solid.

    PS: Does rattling a glass of water off the opposite side of the DJ booth deck count?
     
  12. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    59
    No, you didn't. And I want more technical anwsers. This is what you wrote? The ScratchAmp2 suffered ground loop issues, etc. The Audio 8 was fitted with the ability to lift the ground to resolve this problem.

    So no more using isolators or 3 to 2 prong adapters, etc.


    This doesn't satisfy me. So, ground loops are possible in the Audio 8 and when this happens you can lift the ground? SSL has no ground loop problems! So they don't need a lift. This is a useless comparison with SSL. It's the same as if Vista comes for free with a spyware detector and OSX doesn't (it has no troubles with spyware) and MS starts waving big hands: Hey, we have a free spyware detector in our product, our competitor doesn't (they don't need any, but hey...). I find this very strange and a immature way of doing buisness.

    So, why should NI use the rumble filter as a comparison between IS and TS? It's the same if Vista would have a free virus scanner and OSX doesn't (yet, OSX doesn't need one), and MS starts waving flags with it.

    Here, they don't gain much trust here from me, either.

    Ok, but you clearly didn't use a production model. We'll wait and see how this unfolds (there appear to be some problems for some users with playing out on TS, which doesn't seem to be reproducable i.e. solvable).

    Huh? This happend in your bedroom, right?
     
  13. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,321
    @ Trat

    I'll go a bit more indepth.

    The ground lift is there IN CASE there is a ground loop problem. For instance with the SA2, I always had a problem with ground loop buzz. The only way I could kill it was by using a 3 to 2 prong adapter on my Shuttle's power cable to lift the ground. This would kill the ground buzz instantly. I talked to some people and the problem could be my motherboard is grounded causing the issue.

    However since I started using the Audio 8, this has not been a problem again.

    I don't know the exact the design of the SL1 but the A8 seems to behave in the same manner.

    The ground lift is OPTIONAL, it's there if you need it.

    As for the glass rattling off the DJ booth it was at the club not in my bedroom.

    I had the bass cranked, I was playing Akon at the time and it vibrated my full glass of water right off onto the floor.

    Now I always request bottled water during the night since then. I usually don't have liquids anywhere in the booth but it was too damn hot in there.
     
  14. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

    Messages:
    1,576
    Yes, this is refering to the Audio 8 interface. Electrical grounding has various purposes, it can also reduce noise in the first place. Our engineers found out that you get a cleaner RIAA signal with more dynamic range from the turntables when you ground the system via the audio interface. You don't need to hook up the grounding cables coming from the turntables in that case. Ground lift only needs to be engaged when actual ground loops are present.

    We are not making statements about how other DVS perform. Fact is, Traktor Scratch uses a special interference filter that effectively removes all kinds of interference from the signal, whereas other DVS use a less sophisticated treshold filter. Bass rumble from speakers is not the only interference that can throw off the tracking. We are pretty confident that the filter in Traktor Scratch provides the best possible protection against signal interference.


    Ground loops don't happen within a single device, they happen between several connected devices. You are jumping to conclusions too fast, and without sufficient background knowledge. You can read up on Wikipedia about grounding: "Grounding [...] is also used to control electrical noise in computer, audio and video, and communications circuits."

    Again, please keep a friendly tone towards other forum members.

    Regards, Thomas
     
  15. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    59
    Dude, I never said it happend within a single device. It is called a "loop" for a reason...

    What else then? Please be more specific.

    Where exactly was I unfriendly in the post you quoted me? You don't have to repeat yourself over, and over again. ZZZzzz :eek:

    Thanks for the other info, although I still don't get in how the ground lift disabling option is going to make sense in anything besides using the device as a soundcard. I mean, when should I choose to disable it? Groundloops can also occure during a session (so in the begin there isn't one, but later it occures). I would rather have it on permanently when DJ-ing out. Maybe as a soundcard you don't need it (at home), but I'm really not interested in the soundcard part of DVS systems. I did't buy a DVS for that, I have my RME for that. This is personal subjective, off course.
     
  16. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    59
    Ow, I thought the glas broke. My bad.

    Not even a bottle of Wodka? :D Haha, but you are right. It's better to have someone bring you a drink if you want some. Although I never messed any stuff on my gear during a gig.
     
  17. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

    Messages:
    1,576
    The chart gives a feature comparison, not a performance comparison. Which of these features are relevant for you personally depends on how you typically use your system. The quality of interference filtering for example is not that crucial for people who use it in the system in a studio or home environment.

    Another scenario is to have one turntable stopped, and the second one playing, with a loud overall volume. The tone arm of the stopped turntable could pick up sound, which lets the corresponding deck drift. The filter in Traktor Scratch would prevent that.

    I was refering to the "bedroom" nod towards DJ Quartz. That looked like a belittling argument, but maybe I misunderstood you there.

    Within a setup that might be prone to ground loop problems, you can decide to turn the groundlift on. If you are working with a club setup that is known to have no ground problems, or in a studio, you can leave it off, and potentially get better signal quality. It's about having the flexibility to adjust it to the situation.

    Regards, Thomas
     
  18. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    Its seems we are trying to turn this into some big point scoring match SSL or TS. Its unnecessary. Groundloops occur or they don't, they cause audio issues or they don't. You may change the state of groundlift and the problem goes away or it doesn't. If does you are done, if it does not you find the offender and work to solve the problem. Seems like a no-brainer, not worth splitting hairs over... TS has the capability to do this in the box... OK no biggie. SSL does not, doesn't need it either, according to your experience, again no big deal...

    Where _might_ it be used? Some Laptop power supplies isolate the the AC and DC ground planes and its possible to get groundplane potential differences between the two sides. Putting in groudlifts on the AC side can eliminate the problem but introduces a potential saftety issue. Adding or removing a ground lift point on the DC side on the audio device where noise is produced or observed can mitigate or eliminate the problem. Ideally there should be a single common path to ground for the system and if there is not, noise can be the result.

    Groundloop conditions exist or they don't. The noise result may increase over time as thermal conditions may make subtle changes the overall system electrically, but the ground loop will not suddenly occur, only the evidence it is present will.
    It is subjective indeed. You configure your system such that there is no extra noise it may mean the Goround lift state is changed or not, what matters is that there is no noise.

    Phil
     
  19. trat

    trat Forum Member

    Messages:
    59
    It seems you didn't really read my posts at all. My problem was that NI tries to go for your SSL vs TS scoring match, where as, due to the nature of the comparison points they've turned that into a mockery. It still is only good for putting there own prodcut in it, that is: FS2. Therefore it looks very desperate of NI IMO, Your points only validated the suspision of mine (and others) even more.[/QUOTE]

    Thought about this? Someone add somehting to the DJ booth (laptop, mixer, any electric equipement) and boom! We have a groundloop.

    This adding happens very often on gigs, so it really should be accounted for. I really, rather had groundloop protection on in a smarther way. They don't use a ground lift (like TS does, which can be turend on or off in a hurry) but use a galavanic separation between USB power and audio. So, this isn't groundloop supression (= groundlift) but avoidance. Also, it would make sense to have an option in the TS software (due to the nature of the groundloop cooping of TS) to have an option that lets TS deside when to lift the ground.
     
  20. trat

    trat Forum Member

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    59
    Again, the info given only validates the suspission of the comparison being invalide since most of the facts (i.e. extra features compared to other DVS like SSL) don't make sense. People might think i.e. SSL lacks features TS has where as, in fact, SSL doesn't need those features cause they tackled problems different. It's the same way in which Apple tackled security problems with OSX. Therefore, it would make no sense in Microsoft waving flags with theme having onboard spyware and virus protection and comparing on those extra features with OSX (thus, showing that OSX lacks those features). It wouldn't enhence believe in the product for users who know more than the average user cause it looks invalid and therefore desperate IMO.

    Please change the chart now because SSL overcomes this problem with the treshold slider.


    I can assure you, it wasn't. I thought Quartz ment he broke the glass, something I wouldn't think of happening on stage.


    It would be smarter in the case of TS to have an option of letting TS deside when to activate it. See my post above.
     
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