Traktor VST plugin

I think for stability the final solution is rewire host/slave,

no vst import nor vst-i traktor version,

traktor is a dj SW not a seq, and I want traktor to stay as it is....

Imho naturally.
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PS. another solution is to let users use reaktor and traktor in conjunction,

imho.

 

Yeah, I don't want to change it to be something different, either. But if you come from the production corner, it would be nice to have the possibility to merge some live-DJ tools (like traktor) with your rather rigid sequencersoftware, and on the other hand profit from some automated midi control and stuff without the need of additional midi-drivers.

But yes, rewire would be also fine .

 

OMG this is like banging my head on a brick wall...

VST stands for Virtual STUDIO Technology, it's not LIVE or DJ technology!
Yes, people play live with VSTs but only when they've tried them extensively before hand, and NOT for DJing!
You press play on a sequencer with lots of VSTs and the music doesn't play right away because it is compensating for the delay between the (highest latency) VST recieving audio then outputting the processed audio for you to hear... now imagine that press-play delay in traktor?
MOST FX plugins would only introduce manageable latency, but as soon as you start using complex plugins like pitch bending ones, beatmatching is made nigh on impossible when your syncing/beatgridding goes out the window.

You might well be.

Maybe NI could release their own low latency VST FX or limit you to so many per deck/master output with only certain VSTs, otherwise the potential for it all to go horribly wrong will result in a flood of posters saying "I clicked cue and the waveform moved but took 3 seconds to hear it with 15 pitch bending, EQing, ring modulation FX on every deck."

You could argue that everyone has the common sense to know such things and remedy them if it DID happen, but this forum clearly proves otherwise!

 

I got your point!

But I often route my output through ableton (doubles the latency!) and I have no problems with that. I have to say, I don't use timecode, but I'm not the only one who does this. Mr. Hawtin don't seem to have a problem with a bit more latency too. (he use ableton for fx too)

I use an RME multiface with 3 ms latency. That latency is really enough for my friend who is a very picky piano player (sometimes he record some piano parts for me). And even 6 ms are really really ok.

 

Dear trace alba

Please consider nicer wording - this would be much appreciated.

- My own head is precious to me.
- DJs aren't the first customers with low latency audio requirements for live music.
- VST is one of the standards for audio and MIDI communication, there are others as well, and they all evolve. I mix VST and AU, sometimes Rewire. Most plug-ins come in multiple flavours. And VST can be used for other stuff as well.
- These days timing is not an issue, I use 12 ms overall latency in Ableton Live on my MacBook Pro which allows to play virtual pianos with a live feel - including several daisy-chained pro audio plug-ins.
- The plug-ins you mentioned are different from what I would use inside Traktor.
- I already feed the Traktor sum through Sounflower into Live and use 2-3 daisy-chained plug-ins on the master.

 

...because it's offensive or hard to understand?
I don't believe I was guilty of either.

This I know. Have been using cubase and FL long before traktor.

This I also know.

I wouldn't count Rewire as an audio processor, that's just routing.

THAT'S the latency between you playing your midi keyboard and your piano synth sounding; NOT the latency that your daisy chained VSTs have that is masked by Abletons latency compensation as it plays.

They'll obviously be different for most users. Would you as a developer trust ALL users to use 100% compatible, system non-intensive, low latency plugins?
It's a recipe for disaster.

I mentioned before but I'll try to stress again, the latency introduced by hardware and it's relative drivers is often minimal and is inherant. Once it's there, it stays at that latency unless buffer sizes & sample rates etc are altered.
The latency I'm referring to is due to audio signal PROCESSING.
This will vary depending on which effect you are using and how many instances, plus can often be much higher than 25ms per VST, so imagine turning on 3 of em on on one deck so all of a sudden there's a 75ms + delay in the audio.

Still... if VDJ can do it...

 

No, because you make it sound as everybody thinking otherwise is stupid.

All the tools mentioned are essentially just Audio / MIDI routing. This is also true for the core of VST (which was originally based on Apples Sound Manager).

 

That wasn't my intention, whenever posting on any forum you have to consider that some people know much more about certain subjects than you and some know very little. My intention was to bring the latter up to a level where my point would be understood.
Every time I previously mentioned why traktor would prob not end up as a vst host, I got responses about hardware drivers and inherant SYSTEM latency, so was understandably frustrated.

But we're talking about virtual PLUGINS, routing to & from them takes almost no time at all; it's the audio PROCESSING they do that would introduce various unpredictable amounts of latency into traktor.

It works in ableton cos you only have one constantly playing sequencer, VDJ users can only have plugins on decks, not the master out, they've had midi control issues between controlling VDJ and plugins and the VDJ forum has a thread on "bad" VSTs that cause problems or just don't work with it.

For all we know, NI is trying/has tried to incorporate plugin support so we may yet see it. I personally think that when there's already a clear leader in DAW based "live" music with ableton and VDJ has been known to crash when loading certain plugs, NI would be trying to maintain it's title as the DJs choice of app by keeping it as stable as possible.

If I don't have video plugins or VST plugins but traktor doesn't die ONCE, it's worth not having them, especially when VST is an open format and anyone could make one that NI never tested but totally killed traktor upon loading.

It's like my mates BMW; it's top of the range and has everything but all it takes is one tiny thing to go wrong and the whole car come to a standstill. NI simply cannot implement ALL feature requests as stability would be zero, ESPECIALLY one like this that would probably require a complete overhaul of the audio engine.

All this without even touching upon system resources...

NI may yet make me eat my words, but I certainly wouldn't expect VST support.

 

That's exactly why a pitch shifting plug-in wouldn't be my first choice in Traktor. This effect needs a wide sample window to produce decent sound quality, resulting in a high delay. Traktor can use the deck cache and some pre-processing, the plug-in can't. But some effects produce close to no latency at all. Many professional plug-ins have constant amounts of latency, at least as long as the preset is not changed. And on the master latency doesn't really matter that much, as long as it is the same on all channels.

In Live each clip can be time warped and synced. There's one tempo master, like in Traktor. Live can warp more, Traktor can warp faster.

Traktor has to resample audio somewhere to a constant sample rate for the audio interface. That would be a logical place to put a hook for plug-ins.

Maybe I am not a "VDJ" user - but I definitely want to use plug-ins in Traktor. Especially on the master.
And try to make a clear distinction between the actual plug-in and the standard used for the interface (VST, AU, etc.).

 

Dont Exactly know what you are wanting from a vst, but if you are wanting to play traktor through Live to route through something like reaktor, and you're on mac, you can use soundflower http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/audio/soundflower.html

Output Traktor to Sound flower (I use 16ch)
assign each deck to a pair of channels (Channel A - Soundflower(16ch) out1 & 2) etc

Choose Soundflower as your input device in Live and then route each channel

dont know whether that helps

 

yes.

if your a mac user!

 

Audio routing can be accomplished through various means, including audio hardware. I never use Traktor without Soundflower and Live. With 1.2.1 Soundflower has become much more stable on Intel based Macs. However audio output routing is no replacement for true plug-ins within Traktor, for reasons stated in earlier posts.

 

me too