Twenty Five (Congrats & Issue)

Congratulations to Native Instruments team!
Thank you for such great libraries you've done!

I downloaded your anniversary library "Twenty Five" and it inspired me. So I would say it is deeply Kraftwerk style of sound and at last I'm surprised and happy with this sound. I'm going to add my "Twenty Five" demo piece in MetaPop contest (I think the link posted here will be against the rules).

But I wouldn't be here if there were no bugs, of course!
So there is one little bug and I hope EvilDragon will fix it soon because this library is going to be one of the most used for next weeks. At least for me. So something wrong with the "ping-pong" feature in Replika delay. Probably it isn't stored in plugin's data stored in DAW or something else. So if I open project, the "ping-pong" jumps only to right channel. I should uncheck/check again "ping-pong" button to reactivate normal "ping-pong" as it should be - dancing from left to right and so on.

I've checked this on a project where are 6 instances of Kontakt loaded Twenty Five, so I have 6 instruments from Twenty Five. Five of them use Replika loaded in a FX page with a "ping-pong" feature. I've checked it more than once (unload/load project) so I'm sure this bug is in this beautiful library.

Can someone check this issue on his setup? I made a deeper research using other libraries that allow me to open Kontakt in Edit mode. So I found that if Replika is added into Send Slot, it gives this error after reloading project. But if Replika is added into Main Slot, all is okay. I will reinstall current Kontakt 6.6.1, if it won't solve this, then will try to install previous versions (6.6.0, 6.5.0 etc)

So, problem is with VST3 version of Kontakt.
I downgraded Kontakt to version 6.5.0 and problem is gone.
It seems that Cubase doesn't store properly VST3 data in project file. While testing Kontakt v6.6.0 and v6.6.1, I realized that after project is loaded and I disable and re-enable that track, Kontakt somehow reinitializes everything (?) and problem is solved.

I don't know if this issue should be posted in Steinberg's forum too.
It would be nice if someone with similar setup could check this issue.

Cubase Pro 11, checked on versions 11.0.41 and 11.0.40, no differences.
Kontakt v6.6.1 (VST3) runs into problem.
Kontakt v6.6.0 (VST3) runs into problem.
Kontakt v6.5.0 (VST2) doesn't run into problem. (but still not sure about that)

I have checked this on my second computer. The same.

 

Thanks for the report. Not much I can do about it since this is a Kontakt behavior, not KSP scripting or library behavior.

 

Thanks for reporting, will take a look

 

Thank you both for the replies.
I will wait for any recommendations. Should I reinstall something and how much? I thought that maybe external Replika/Replika XT somehow was changing something, but its latest version 1.4.0 was installed in June this year, and I don't remember this issue happened a month earlier from now.

Maybe something wrong with Visual C++? Every modern application installs the version it needs and for me as for programmer it is something strange and unpredictable for nowadays. Latest installations were made on 10/22/2021 - version 2015-2019 (I suppose it's the latest) and also versions 2012 and 2013 which probably can somehow interfere on system's stability. I just flying between many thoughts. These are primary suspicion for now.

Here is a list of installed MS VC packs on my main computer. Will check it on second too.

 

Can you post which snapshot from 25 does this for you?

 

Never mind, I can reproduce

 

Any snapshot which has Replika activated on FX page. For example the default loaded - Bone Crackin.
Also if I load for example Alicia's Keys and open Kontakt Edit mode and add Replika in Instrument Sends FX pane (Send Levels receiver is in Source pane), I get the same result as I described above. If I load Replika in Insert FX pane (it doesn't need a receiver as for Sends FX), then all is working (stored/restored) properly.

But if you'll try this on standalone Kontakt, you won't replicate this problem.

On second computer the last update of Visual C++ (versions 2015-2019, 2013 and 2012) was on June 25th this year. So this could not be the case. What else?

I'm stuck on this. Many projects, sketches that are not finished (so tracks are not rendered on place) have presets where Replika is used in original presets/snapshots (provided by NI). It will be very difficult to check every preset is there a Replika that makes sound wide, nice, compliant and why it goes to the right when it shouldn't.

Yaron @ NI , the next research point - maybe it will help more -
1) activate Aux Sends and rise aux 1 send level to be valuable;
2) add Replika delay in aux 1 bus
3) activate ping-pong in Replika, listen, it should sound as expected
4) save project (not preset in standalone)
5) reopen project and play a note! I have delay replications sounding in right channel only.

I get this in mind because this is Send feature like it is in Kontakt edit mode. This issue proves that it's true

So to get Replika working normally, I can by switching ping-pong off/on, or changing delay mode (Modern, Analog, Tape etc), or disabling/enabling track where Kontakt loaded. After that everything works perfect until project is saved and reopened.

Maybe stupidly, but I tried to load external Replika/Replika XT in Send and Insert slots of DAW, but didn't met any problems. Works with a charm.

Here I captured video of process including sound

 

So I suppose for the time being you could remove the VST3 plugin from where it's locaed and keep on working with VST2 only, which doesn't exhibit the problem?

 

Yes, it works, but Kontakt VST2 doesn't load Instruments stored in project by Kontakt VST3. So this could be a solution only for new projects while NI works on problem to solve this in VST3 engine.

 

Right. And Cubase doesn't make it easy for you to have VST2 of K6.6 at the same time as VST3 of it in the same project... so can't even port the instances easily.


...actually, you can! Save your K6.6 VST3 instances as a multi, remove them, save project, remove VST3 from where it is, open project, replace them with VST2 instace and load the multi back in!

 

Yes, this would work, but hey, look at this - there is something strange, if not random. I hide all VST3 files. Cubase launches as rocket. WavesHell don't have VST2 So the strange thing is that when I run Cubase for first time after I hide VST3, NI Transient Master and Solid Bus Comp didn't restore settings they had with VST3 plugin. I didn't save project with this strange state, just close and reopen later. Now they both have my settings like they was in VST3 version.

I also opened my test project you saw in my video. I open it with VST2 and Alicia's Keys instrument is there and playing, and Replika in aux1 works as expected. Before that instrument was gone (empty Kontakt instance) when I open project right after I hide VST3 of Kontakt.

So I think better would be to have all VST3 back. Did you reproduce this VST3 problem on your setup?

 

I don't have/own/use Cubase so no, I cannot reproduce it over here. It doesn't reproduce in other DAWs that I have.

 

Does other DAWs use VST3? ProTools uses AAX, what else I (don't) know?

Okay, I tried the method you gave.

Yes, it works. But imagine you do this on 30 or more projects right now if you wanna finish album for Christmas time
I think, if NI can confirm that they work to solve this (if this problem isn't unique), then I can do simplest way - still use VST3, but after loading project, disable&reenable those tracks where is Kontakt with a preset that uses Replika, or just do this on all Kontakt instances. Because I really don't want any additional problems that may occur because of hidden (or incomplete bundle of) VST3.

 

Of course, almost any other DAW has VST3 support by now, except ProTools and Logic and some niche ones.

Sounds like a few hours of work to me, to be honest. Unless you have hundreds of Kontakt instances to go through in a single project... then maybe a few days?

Still enough time till Xmas


TBH I'd just be using VST2 for as long as possible, personally. Or not use that Cubase thing, but that might be a non-starter for some!

 

Yes, now I feel it was my biggest fault this year to upgrade everything But all other plugins are working properly - Spitfire Audio, Vienna, iZotope, Waves and of course all Steinberg plugins. Interesting is that Vienna it self is VST3, but plugins in it is loaded as VST2. So I cannot check does this reloading problem occurs in other platform than Cubase.

 

Well, between Yaron and me we've tried most other DAWs and it only happens in Cubase, only in VST3, only on Windows. So it's something extremely specific.

 

Okay, I believe it's extremely specific, but I guess it's not unique to the one setup. My second computer which is used only once, twice in a month (when I need to render big video or audio projects) and works perfectly, have the same issue and no others. It's extremely strange

So anyway I cannot address this issue to Steinberg, because a) Steinberg invented VST and b) everything else (any other plugins by any other developer) is working properly (at least I didn't met problems except slower loading times).

Maybe NI can update Kontakt that its VST2 version understands data stored by VST3 version and convert it on the fly when it's needed by user? I saw some posts where users asked how to disable VST3 because overall performance isn't compatible with their needs, maybe because of loading times and slow, old computers?

Anyway I will wait for updates and hope this will end soon, because it interferes my workflow. I cannot go back to VST2, I just will disable/reenable tracks "infected by this intellectual virus"

 

Nor did I mention it was unique to one setup. It's unique to the Windows-Cubase-VST3 constellation.

Unfortunately that is not possible. AFAIK, Steinberg made it so that VST2 instances can be ported to VST3 instances, but not the other way around.

 

Please, pay attention to this. I tried any other third party plugins and no one of those who are VST3 does this failure. I have a conversation from other users who confirm this issue. It's not serious if I should step back to VST2 not knowing how much projects I should transform to use Kontakt VST2.

 

The issue has been tracked. It's not yet been decided when it will be worked on. For the time being, if you want to work around the issue, use VST2 version please.