Bug User Content Path cannot be altered

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by CakeAlexS, Jun 12, 2015.

  1. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    STEPS

    New project.
    Go to File -> Preferences -> Library -> User

    [​IMG]


    EXPECTED

    P134 section 3.4.4 of the MASCHINE - Manual Addendum states:
    "The User Content folder can neither be renamed nor removed from the list. You can modify its path in the Location column."

    ACTUAL

    You can't modify the path in the location column.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. taoyoyo

    taoyoyo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,603
    My gut feeling is that this is an error in the Manual Appendum rather than a bug... possibly copied and modified the paragraph about the SUD (which does have the folder icon that can be clicked to point it to another location) and forgot to change to 'cannot'.

    I'm guessing this is the case as NI User Patches (saved in Standalone, Maschine or Komplete Kontrol) are all saved there as a central path for this feature from 2.3 (and it would get too messy to allow them to be saved elsewhere in different applications?):
    • NIS roundtrip (saving presets in KK will update Maschine and the standalone version of the plugins browser with the preset)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    There's no reason why the folder cannot be changed. It just requires a single registry entry where all apps can look. Having user content folders hard coded would be a bad move regardless.

    Regardless of what the issue actually is documentation (right or wrong) states it is by design.
     
  4. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    Still an issue with 2.3.1
     
  5. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    This is not a bug. Confirmed with developers this was an intentional design choice that came with the NIS round trip feature. They wanted the centralized NI user preset folder to be fixed for compatibility and consistency. This does not stop you from having your own secondary path for presets along with the movable standard user directory. You can still select your desired destination when saving in Maschine as well as the other plugins.
     
  6. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    So we have a hard coded user data folder that cannot be moved?
    "to be fixed for compatibility and consistency." - Can you break this down? I just don't get that. Most apps looks at a registry key to find out where a particular folder location is. Having a hard coded fixed folder that cannot be moved should give no advantage at all. I can't even see what the technical advantage might be.

    Thanks..
     
  7. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    All the applications have their own folders they can store presets to. Previously there was no dependency of other applications on the location. Now, there is a unified location that is shared across all products. Masive, FM8, Reaktor, Kontakt, Absynth, Komplete Kontrol and Maschine. All Komplete presets are now guaranteed to show up in both Maschine and KK regardless of plugin they are saved in. You can save a Massive preset in Maschine and it will show as a preset in Massive stand alone as well as in Komplete Kontrol. Same in the other direction.

    In order for this to work, all apps need to be saving to the same location. If the location is movable between different apps, it breaks the whole system. It's hard enough and a huge (probably the number 1 support issue) keeping plugin and library paths straight just inside of 1 app. This would be a nightmare for support and less techie users alike.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    That being said, you can still create your own separate NI user content folder in both KK and Maschine. Not sure why you would as there are no samples etc. involved with these presets but it can be done. But there is a standard fixed directory for good reason.
     
  9. Organik_Dream

    Organik_Dream NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    384
    All yours .
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  10. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    Sorry but I still disagree. There should be no case whatsoever for hard coded file paths whatsoever that contains user data. Each app can look at a single centralized registry key (or multiple registry keys if necessary) to find out where the folder is. I argue this is bad design if this is not happening.

    Anybody in support can find out where the folder is by looking in settings, I don't think it would be a nightmare. I also note with support that often initially send a utility to the customer that provides them with a system specs report, that report should supply them the relevant files paths (and if it doesn't they should update it).

    @Organik_Dream I share and run Sonar and Maschine VST's perfectly in the same folder path. If you have an issue please start your own thread to discuss your issue, so we can stick to topic here. Thanks.
     
  11. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    Like I said, it is already a big support issue just managing locations in Maschine by itself. Can't count how many times I have had to get peoples paths straight on this forum and that's just me. Your telling me it is not a strain on support when you have no experience supporting it. Then to magnify that with needing to repeat the process of getting it right in one app with all the others too. The point is for customers to not have to call in at all. It matters not how easy the resolution is, any time you have tons of users calling in on the same issue then that is something you want to rectify. It's a hassle to have to manage a location in one app and then be required to open up another app and repeat the process. Most users don't want to be bothered with that and should not be required to in order to make the feature work. Has nothing to do with registry or whatever.

    This is how they made it work by saving to a unified location. If each app has a way to change where it is pointing to, then the simple logic is that changing it in one place forces you to change the path in the other app. You could make it so changing it in one app changes it in all apps, but then you still get someone wondering why the location changed in KK when they wanted it to point somewhere else. Like they want their Maschine to point to an external for live gigs but they did not want that to happen with KK etc.

    Like I said, you still have the ability to work it the way you want and set your own paths. The reasoning as I explained above is quite simple to understand. Not sure why you are arguing. That locked location does not hurt anything whatsoever nor present any issue or hassle to the end user regardless if they want to use it or not.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  12. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    From the logic here, the Windows "My Documents", "My Pictures" etc should all be hard coded in the same areas. All user definable folder paths should now be hard coded in the same location because it is a hassle to support them.

    I really don't see what makes it a special case from the arguments given. Most windows apps are aware where the centralized folder locations are when they save a document. There should be no hassle moving this folder at all, no more than anything else.

    You should be able to move all data paths quite happily (I've explained how). People have backup strategies for instance. I personally want all data one partition and all apps on another. What we have here flies in the face of good design. I appreciate you can set up a second folder but it still allows a person to save to the wrong folder accidentally.

    Let us agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
  13. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    I can see what you are saying in principle. User paths should "NEVER" be locked so users can't change it. But there are exceptions to most rules. I can see what you are saying that they could have maybe took a different approach by making the folder path change in other apps when changed in another. However, I can see why they took the current approach and think what they have done works just fine.

    Regardless, it is not a bug but a purposeful design choice.
     
  14. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,262
    Agreed not bug, but really really terrible design!!

    The reason why it got logged as bug was because of the way it was documented in the first place.

    Cheers..
     
  15. mykejb

    mykejb NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    629
    The whole save location stuff is still really fundamentally flawed. For example:

    Load FM8 and save a user preset, it goes into Docs\NativeInstruments\FM8\Sounds. Load FM8 inside KK and it goes into Docs\NativeInstruments\User Content\FM8\FM7 Legacy. You can add user locations to KK, but you can't change the default save location. You can add user locations to FM8 but you can't delete the default so it will always try to save there. If you mark a sound as a favourite in FM8 it doesn't show in favourites in Maschine/KK and vice versa. Massive is the same, as is Absynth.

    What's really needed is a consistent method of tagging/favouriting that works correctly and round-trips across the various applications/plugins etc.

    I have to think though that it won't be long before the various synths stop existing as standalone applications and will only be accessible from inside Maschine or KK. You might be able to buy them separately but they'll still work inside M/KK in the same way that the Solid plugins started off inside Guitar Rig. At that point we're pretty much back to Kore, but without the problem of keeping the internal and standalone synths/effects in sync which was supposedly the reason that Kore was discontinued.

    Mike
     
  16. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    The round trip is for now just KK to Maschine and Maschine to KK. The folder path is only consistent betewen the two. Though Maschine now saves Komplete presets in native FM8 etc. format instead of the proprietary Maschine instrument format. You can add the user content path to Massive or Reaktor etc. and they will pick up presets saved in Maschine after scanning. Something that was not possible before.

    FM8 favorites is a different system than the one in KK/Maschine. I think this all will be improved as we go and more unified in future versions of the NI synths.
     
  17. mykejb

    mykejb NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    629
    Yep .. that's pretty much where I'm expecting things to go, except I'm thinking we'll end up with an NI "wrapper" for all the various synths and one big unified database rather than lots of independent ones. NI pretty much got that idea right with Kore but the implementation wasn't as good as it could have been. Hopefully with a few years experience they'll get it right this time!

    Mike
     
  18. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    9,677
    True, and on that note maybe they will take the Cake's idea and unify the path in a different way once all the instruments and effects are on the same page. Still a work in progress.
     
  19. alexbuga

    alexbuga NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    830
    On the Mac the "User folder is in my whole Documents folder" And I can't freaking change it :))
     
  20. alexbuga

    alexbuga NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    830
    PS: Delete the .plist file in ~/Library/Preferences/
    com.native-instruments.Maschine 2.plist

    And it reverts to defaults