v3.3 support for Rewire into Ableton Live

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by flowdynamics, May 28, 2007.

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  1. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

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    What the heck, I 'll throw one last thing for today: Recording of your set directly in Live.

    Plug the record out of your mixtable into the first input pair of your souncard.

    You have to bump the number of virtual input channel to 10 in JackPilot prefs. Stop it first then restart it when you have changed the prefs.

    Then load both provided files as usual. Turn on input 9/10 in the Live prefs.

    There, you should see the signal from your mixtable in Live in the 'Record' track.
     

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  2. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

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  3. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

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    As for the Midi sync, don't know if it is fixed in 3.3, but this doesn't seem to work very easily in 3.2. Tried to set it up on the MacBook, and no dice. Then I tried the IAC driver (duh, this does the very same thing, but built in... I love reinventing the wheel...).

    And then it worked.

    My best guess: You must have at least TWO midi interface plugged in for Traktor to get over some weird bug and send the Midi Clock.

    My M-audio has a built in Midi interface, that is maybe why it worked out of the box when I installed ipMidi. What is even funnier is that I've turned on the IAC driver on the iMac, and I can't output a Midi clock with it! You know what: I love NI :p

    So, here is what I think you need to do:

    First, grab Midi Monitor: http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/9950/midi-monitor

    It is an handy little app which show any Midi traffic on the computer.

    Then, install ipMidi, and turn on IAC (in the Audio MIDI Setup app, located in the Utilities folder).

    Go to the External sync prefpane in T3, check the 'Send MIDI clock' box. Then try every interface available (well, IAC and ipMIDI mainly), press 'Apply' each time you change interface.

    One should work :) You will know because there will be some activity in the midi monitor window. Sorry, can't be more precise than this, it is the most baffling bug I ever saw!
     
  4. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

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    Hum. This is getting weirder and weirder. I hope I'm not covering old ground here, haven't checked this forum in ages, please let me know if I'm rambling like a madman.

    Anyway, this midi sync issue was bugging me, so I decided to check if I could make some previously non working midi interface work or not.

    Lo, just got on the iMac, and the IAC and M-Audio are now sending MIDI clock. I really don't know what could have caused them to work...
    ---
    Also, just did a quick set with T3 + some loops in Live, and it was like... like having a digital orgasm :)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2008
  5. 2manyTHRILLS

    2manyTHRILLS Forum Member

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    Can I ask do you use turntables when trying to achieve this because if you are then forget it. The midi clock simply fluctuates too much for the two programs to be in sync when turntables are used. If you are Dj'ing within a 'digital' domain (just T3 or T3 with cdj's) then the clock should be ok, but after all the testing I conducted (traktors in sync with ableton on one machine) wouldn’t trust it enough to use it.

    As for routing audio from one program to another well thats something I never looked into because your latency will suffer immensely. Even more so when you start throwing VST effects/instruments into the equation (which you will!). Personally I gave up chasing this because never felt 100%comfortable at pushing the two programs to such extremes on one laptop. The last thing I need when dj'ing is worrying about my equipment. Obviously this depends on the specification of the machine being used, for me it was simply too much of a concern.

    The best solution here would be for NI to incorporate a multi-sampler and VST support into traktor rather then people try to route everything out to another program that offers such features. How long this will take though or if it is ever considered by NI is something completely different. Another expensive option is to have two laptops and two sound cards! Something that your probably not going to do unless your Richie Hawtin but will work 100% with audio routing and midi sync between the two programs.

    Either way good luck with your quest of total audio cohesion, I hope you gain better results than I did ;)
     
  6. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    229
    >>Can I ask do you use turntables when trying to achieve this because if you are then forget it. The midi clock simply fluctuates too much for the two programs to be in sync when turntables are used. If you are Dj'ing within a 'digital' domain (just T3 or T3 with cdj's) then the clock should be ok, but after all the testing I conducted (traktors in sync with ableton on one machine) wouldn’t trust it enough to use it. <<

    No, I don't use turntables, I only have a computer, a Midi controller and an analog mixer. I wouldn't consider doing this kind of stuff if I was playing vinyl on top of it, you got to have a master clock, it is too unreliable else (unless you are Jeff Mills).

    As far as I can tell for now, the sync between T3 and Live is working great. Did some tests with two decks running and 2 loops, then changing the tempo in the T3 master clock, and everything stayed in sync. Also, turning the master clock 'send' button on and off sends stop and start signal that Live can use to trigger armed clips, and every time they started playing perfectly in sync. So, I'm very happy with the sync between the two apps.

    >>As for routing audio from one program to another well thats something I never looked into because your latency will suffer immensely. Even more so when you start throwing VST effects/instruments into the equation (which you will!). Personally I gave up chasing this because never felt 100%comfortable at pushing the two programs to such extremes on one laptop. The last thing I need when dj'ing is worrying about my equipment. Obviously this depends on the specification of the machine being used, for me it was simply too much of a concern.<<

    I agree, I wouldn't play live with this setup. This is still experimental. I'm going to test the hell out of it and try everything I can to break it first. So far, this has been incredibly stable. About the latency, I'm a latency freak myself, and I am bothered immediately when it is above 10-15ms.

    I upped the sample rate of my audio card to 88200 Hz which had the effect of lowering the latency to 5.5 ms in T3, with a 512 sample buffer. Lowering the buffer crashed T3 at startup.

    After that it depends on the kind of plugin you use. Some plugins work in real time, some don't. If you put a linear phase EQ, or a compressor with a high lookahead, then mechanically your latency is increased.

    I'm using Sonalkis plugs, and the Live EQ, and I don't feel any sluggishness. I don't know what my real latency could be, but I am pretty sure it is below 10 ms. I have no problem starting tracks on time, no problem either doing volume cutting in and out with the MIDI controller. The attack of the beat isn't mangled at all when doing that, which is a telltale sign when you have a too high latency.

    My impression is that since everything is done internally, as long as you don't have plugin that by design increase latency, you don't have any latency increase. I can be wrong. I'll try to put a hell of a plugin chain in a deck, until I nearly max out my processor to see what happens to the felt latency.

    >>The best solution here would be for NI to incorporate a multi-sampler and VST support into traktor rather then people try to route everything out to another program that offers such features. How long this will take though or if it is ever considered by NI is something completely different.<<

    Lol. Well, it looks like it isn't considered, so if we want to have those functionalities, we will have to get them by ourselves! :)

    And I disagree with you on this one. Even if they finally come to integrate some stuff, this won't match the potential I believe there is in the T3+Live combination.

    My belief is that NI should implement Rewire, period. This way we don't have to mess with hacks. And I believe that they should concentrate on putting out a lean, fast, stable track player, and leave the rest of the stuff to other software.

    I don't want a half baked Live in Traktor, I want a good integration between Live and Traktor (and as of now, I think I have it). I believe strongly that this is the future.

    As an example, just found this yesterday, and it blew my socks off: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2McDeSKiOU"]YouTube - Moldover's Approach to Controllerism (1 of 2)[/ame] (Moldover video). This guy use plenty of unrelated software to achieve what he wants, he's playing out live with it, and it rocks.

    >>Another expensive option is to have two laptops and two sound cards! Something that your probably not going to do unless your Richie Hawtin but will work 100% with audio routing and midi sync between the two programs.<<

    I have two laptop (one old G3, I'm not rich :) ) and I think I will consider synching them over ethernet when Jack finally re-implement its audio transfer over a network. But I will add more stuff, not split the load :p

    >>Either way good luck with your quest of total audio cohesion, I hope you gain better results than I did <<

    Thanks for the kind words! I don't know which kind of hardware you have, but if you have something comparable to my setup, try it for yourself, you'll be impressed. Hell, I'm totally impressed by what I have achieved on this setup so far, and I musn't have really spinned with it more than one or two hours.

    Talking about that, I'm done with the writing and stress tests for today, I'm gonna play with my new toy :)
     
  7. ossie99

    ossie99 New Member

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    6
    I just wanted to pass along my thanks for such detailed explanations on the rigging. I just got ableton and love the synths and effects but really prefer the layout of Traktor whilst doing my mixes. I still seem to have a problem however. My headphones jack directly into my Audiofire 2 external soundcard. But now that I am using Jackpilot to manage my I/O there isn't any way to cue or prelisten in Traktor before adding Deck B to A in the mix. is this just a .tks issue on my midi-controller(Faderfox DJ2 minimixer) or a routing problem where the cue a/b channels are now acting as Deck outs. Again, thanks for all your help.
     
  8. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    229
    Hi Ossie and welcome!

    Thanks for the kind words!

    The cue buttons in Traktor won't work when it is set on external mixer. I have a physical external mixer, so I do my cueing on it.

    Alternatively, I see that your card has a headphone out that is assignable, you may use the audiofire software to switch which channel is listened to in the headphones. My card has a button that switch between A and B, but I think in your case this is software only.

    I'll try to setup a more convenient solution in Live, it may be possible to do a bit of trick routing so you don't have to switch to yet another app to cue.

    By the way, did you get the MIDI clock to work? What did you do? I really need other people to help on his problem, as I don't have yet a 100% sure solution to it.
     
  9. ossie99

    ossie99 New Member

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    6
    Morning Nico,
    So heres where I am at. New to Ableton, so I have yet to really get into the production/looping capabilities of the program. However, I have been messing with the basic effects that they offer. I set up my returns as a delay, reverb, ping pong, and falange then send those back into Deck A,B,etc... This means no need for clocking just yet. I did read up a little but it's probably over my head at this point. My midi(Faderfox) still allows for all my controls in Traktor except the cues. I've opened my soundcard software to see if I can do some routing there to isolate the headphone out, but I'm not really confident in what I need to look for. Anyway, keep up the good work. I've passed this thread to some friends who are keenly interested in patching ableton and traktor as well, so hopefully we can get some good dialogue.
     
  10. Nico_Tf

    Nico_Tf NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    229
    Hey Ossie, i'm sorry, but I have just so much stuff going on, work is hectic and everything... Anyway, misunderstood your question, it struck me this afternoon, and I had a big 'Doh!' moment :)

    So, basically, you have your program out on output A, and your cue on output B, and the cue button don't work in T3...

    You need to do the cueing in Live, rather than in T3. To learn how to do that, open the Live manual, (Help menu, then 'Read the Live manual'), and search for 'cue', it's in chapter 13.5 called 'Soloing and Cueing'. Also there is probably a way to make Live learn your Firefox cue buttons, so you can use them to cue.

    If anyone can please help on the MIDI clock thing, it would be lovely. Even if you didn't understand how you did it, or plain managed to fail; it would be much appreciated.

    If you don't, I will have to reinstall T3 from scratch to try out different hypotheses, and I don't have time to do that.

    TIA!
     
  11. jgerry

    jgerry New Member

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    Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I may have a solution for the cueing issue that's been mentioned.

    I've got Traktor running directly into Live now, which works fine. I'm using the 16 channel I/O from Soundflower on OSX, and I've set the master outs from Traktor to Soundflower channels 1/2.

    Now here's the cue fix. Set the monitor (cue) channels in Traktor to Soundflower channels 3/4. Then in Live, set up 2 audio tracks. I labeled mine "Traktor" and "Cue". Set the inputs for the "Traktor" channel to Soundflower 1/2. This is the main output, and where I chain up my effects like a nice compressor. Then set the inputs for "Cue" to Soundflower 3/4. This is the cue channel.

    I break up Live's output routing to my M-Audio Firewire 410 by setting the "Traktor" output to the 410's 1/2 channels, then set the output routing for Live's "Cue" channel to the 410's 3/4 channels. Then in the M-Audio mixer control panel, I set the primary outputs 1/2 to go to my PA gear, then route 3/4 to the 410's headphone outputs. I don't know how you'd set it up with a different audio interface, but I imagine it would be very similar. Just dedicate 2 stereo channels, one for the mains and one for the cue, then monitor the cue channel with your headphones.

    This works perfect for me. Since the Cue buttons in Traktor actually pass the audio into Live, you can still use them normally and don't have to mess with Live's cueing at all. A real plus since I am using a VCI-100 and I don't have to change anything around with the midi controls at all. The cues work just as they did before.

    Hope this helps someone out.
     
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