What's wrong with cue mix on the S5?

I couldn't find any info about a certain problem with my s5. If the cue mix knob is in the center position, the main signal and the cue signal are not balanced at all. I can hardly hear the cued track (or the preview player) while the main signal is very loud. I have to turn the mix knob down to 25% and raise the cue volume to get a somewhat even mix. Does anybody else have this problem, besides this amazon reviewer?

 

The problem you are writing about happens with EVERY Mixer (also DJM900 Nexus for example), when the gain of the channel is higher than the gain of the master.
Just if the master and the channel gain have the same amount it will equal even loudness in the mid potentiometer position.

So there is nothing wrong at all.
Thats the reason why you can turn that little guy so it fits your needs.
Try to lower the main output and raise the channel gain instead.
With that your overall output will sty the same but the ratio will change.
(and another benefit is: the master in traktor can clip. the single channel can't.)

 

I am not an expert on EVERY mixer, but I'm pretty certain about how cue mix works on my Xone 42. But that's not the point because we're not talking about any audio mixer at all, but a software controller. I was asking other S5 users if they can observe the same strange behavior, that CUE and MIX signals have tremendous level differences.

Here's how I came to the conclusion that there's something wrong:

1. I loaded the same track into deck A & B.
2. I set A&B's gain knobs to 0 dB (EQs too of course).
3. I turned channel A's fader up and B's down.
4. I turned on CUE for Deck B, and made sure it's turned off for A.
5. I turned the CUE MIX knob repeatedly from left to right and back.

Theoretically, there shouldn't be any level difference, right? But with my unit it's clearly audible. The level meter on an audio recorder that I hooked up to the headphone output measured a difference of roughly 18 dB between CUE MIX turned fully to the left and fully to the right. That is not normal, so I opened a ticket (Ticket#2015121010001929). It would still be interesting to know if other people's S5s are broken the same way and maybe a firmware update can help.

 

Hey @rndmfktr, I can confirm the same experience on my new S5. Here's what I've observed..

If the cue volume knob is set anywhere under 45-50%, the cue mix is biased toward the main. But, if I crank the volume up to 50-75%, it evens out the mix. However, the only way I'm able to set the headphone level so high without killing my ears is to set the channel gains at around 25% (about -20dB).

If I reset the gains and pull the software's master level down to -20dB it evens out the cue mix, regardless of headphone volume. I've never played a gig on a PA or anything so, I don't know but, I don't think -20dB is suitable. I typically leave my master at -8dB at home.

Furthermore, it states in this knowledge base article:

• MIX: This creates a blend between the cued channels (see 3. above) and your main mix. This way you can try a new song in your mix before actually playing it out. When set to 0% (fully counter-clockwise) you will only hear your cued channels on your headphones. When set to 50% (noon) you will hear an even mix of your cued channels and the main mix on your headphones. When set to 100% (fully clockwise) you will only hear your main mix on your headphones.

I would definitely like to hear more on this topic, especially from within your support ticket, so please keep this updated. I also opened a ticket yesterday, as two of my FX knobs won't retain their properly calibrated position after a restart.

 

Wrong. You have the same amount just in the case that channel AND Master Out are the same. It does not matter what the ratio of Deck A to Deck B is!

For example your Xone will work the same:
Put a Vinyl on your TT or a CD in your CDJ, and set the channel gain so that it hits to -15dB max.
Now turn the Master Poti so that the Master out reaches +6dB (or even the red +10dB LED, does not matter for this test)

What are you observing? The same behavior you are observing on your Controller.

Only if the channel gain on your Xone is quite equal to the master gain (e.g both on 0dB) you will have an equal loudness when the cue/mix poti is in the mid position.

And of course this is the same with ANY Mixer. Does not matter if it is hardware or within a software as the Traktor internal mixer simulates a hardware mixer. Nothing more, nothing less

The only solution to this would be, that the cue/mix poti is programmed so that it "knows" which gains on the channels are and level it automatically to an even balance in the mid position.. But your Xone does not now as well, so why should NI do that?

Sorry to say so, but obviously you didn't understand how the cue/mix poti works.
Just try my example. If that does not convince you, come to Austria and I'll pay you a beer

What might be the case: in Traktor 0dB channel gain does not equal 0dB Master output. That might be. As I am mixing external I have no clue about that. But then you just have to reduce the master out level. It is not smart to put it near to 0dB at all. Especially when you are mixing internal.
Though I mix external I always play with -15dB and never had any problem in Bars or Clubs.

 

Okay, after more than one week NI didn't manage it to reply to my support request. That's just poor customer service. If somebody is scanning the forums for frustrated customers and can help me to escalate the issue, my ticket# is above.

OY, I'm sorry but your theory of the master output being somehow connected to the cue mix is nonsense. It doesn't work this way. As an example, I attached the signal flow diagram of the Xone:43. See how the MIX pot is at the last stage before the output? And how the master signal is routed to CUE MIX before the pot? I'm sure it's similar on other mixers, because doing it differently wouldn't make sense.

 

Seems like you are right for the Xone. It has been a while that I was in front of a Xone 92 as we have almost only Pioneer Mixers in the city. Sorry for that.

But it is defninetly different for DJMs like the 800. The lower your master signal is, the lower your cue/mix volume is in 'mix' position. So Pioneer might catch the signal somewhere else than A&H and NI decided to use the latter?

But I am completely with you that the Xone system is superior! Especially in small venues like Bars and Lounges it is really annoying when at the beginning of the evening the Master is rather quiet.
So you have to pull up the volume poti and as soon as you turn the cue/mix back to cue it blasts your ears if you forget to lower the volume poti...

EDIT:
i searched the DJM800 manual and it is like I said: they catch the Headphone Signal after the Master Poti
http://docs.pioneerdj.com/Manuals/DJM_800_DRB1392_manual/?_ga=1.52006634.2125963963.1443479640

So we were both right and should share the beer haha

 

Wow, I learned something! One of many possible explanations why I never felt comfortable with Pioneer mixers. But back on topic: I overslept that I got an answer from NI support quite a long time ago:

no, this is not a HW-defect, but a know Traktor bug that should be fixed in the
next update:

TP-11138
Kontrol S5 Cue Volume level is not consistent when adjusting the Cue Mix Knob.​

Now I wait.

​

 

Thanks for the update @rndmfktr!

 

Yeah that volume issue is a bad one, I almost popped my head.
I hadn't used the cue mix except for full left for no mix.
Made the mistake of adjusting cue mix with the volume at full.
If I could map it I would have volume automatically move to a set point when using cue mix unless shift was pushed.

 

I sure hope it gets fixed or something before I do that again. I changed the color of the mix knob so that should help. I might put a warning sticker by the volume. Or buy a red knob.