Why do you think NI went mute on song layer?

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by toneyrome, May 8, 2019.

  1. wetdentist

    wetdentist NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    904
    i still think that now that sounds.com has been integrated, Maschine has reached its "maturity." sure, there will be more expansion packs, and maintenance releases (in order to keep the expansion packs coming), but what else can NI do?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    103
    There's plenty to be done - even by NI's own standards (set by some of the other product updates its recently released) Maschine is behind the 8-ball. NI is an "ecosystem" and I personally think they're striving to bring a certain consistency of experience across their product range. The reason Maschine development has stalled is because other parts of ecosystem were being developed, and one of NI's main businesses is selling "sounds." That's why NKS has been at the forefront, it's providing a uniform experience across several product lines and also supports an essential business function, which is to sell more sounds. Sounds.com obviously is an important part of this as well.

    Ultimately, sequencing is not where their bread is buttered BUT I don't think NI can afford to let Maschine lag so far behind it's other products that it becomes a drag on the overall experience across the product lines. I think the consumer journey starts with the sounds/synths/sample libraries, leads to NKS which leads the keyboards, which may lead to Maschine, which finally leads to the sequencer. In that way, Maschine's strategic value is like an anchor to the whole ecosystem -- even though it's probably lowest of all of their priorities and among the last stops of the consumer journey (and right now is totally dispensable), if it is able to deliver a consistent experience that grows out of the "hands on" aesthetic they've established from their other products, it can be the final snare that locks a person into the NI ecosystem completely.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,605
    Sarcasm or real question?
    Sounds.com is still in its infancy, I seriously doubt they look at it as a "finished feature".
    They could, maybe... add some of the hundreds of valid feature requests people have been asking for years.
     
  4. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,304
    I already said it was aliens and none of you can prove otherwise. The evidence is everywhere!
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  5. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,766
    Strange concept of 'maturity' there indeed :eek::D
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,766
    And just as they were fixing the midi channel out too...........................pesky aliens...........................:D
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. RobLo

    RobLo NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    295
    If they do this....it would be NI's death knell IMO.

    They got away with it once with Kore....not again.

    I think NI is deluded and honestly believe NKS will become the universal standard by which all devs adhere to. That won't happen.

    I could be completely wrong....it would be the thousandth time, but I digress.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. wetdentist

    wetdentist NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    904
    i don't know, what is it called when one is being sarcastic and truthful at the same time?
    of course i don't believe that Maschine has reached maturity, but that doesn't mean that a company can't feel that way
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,766
    Every time I see Daniel Havers out in interview land he comes over to me as a dictionary definition of hubris and that scares me in terms of what that might mean for NI and consequently it's users. I really do hope I'm wrong footed on this. I don't know what the opinion is of NKS from a technical point of view but as a user it does have a lot of pluses and it would be good if it was adopted across the board but then they'd have change their supposed attitude towards it's licencing. However given said Mr Havers admiration for Adobe I would be really scared if one of the reasons for wanting NKS to be the mainstay format was to implement some kind of mandatory subscription.
     
  10. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,605
    Sarcruthful?
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  11. AntonA1

    AntonA1 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,710
    Whatever brings in the Benjamins, right? Hook the newbies with some cheap audio crack then lock away the stash unless they pay up monthly. :D

    Lest we forgot, that injection of cash they received was from an investment firm. As others have alluded, N.I.’s responsibility is to grow their user base and hook people into their eco-system for repeat purchases so they show that they’re a good investment that provides value to stakeholders.

    If they do create an updated version of Maschine will it be like the Traktor 3.0 transition? Keep updating the old (unmanageable) code for a few years then “Hello Kore!”. Or will they create some kind of ongoing parallel universe (old-skool Maschine vs new-skool “Daw” Maschine), that you can switch back and forth between?

    It’s really kind of hard to care either way when they’ve gotten so much wrong and used up so much good faith from their amazing user base.

    Whine, whine, sniff, sniff...sorry; couldn’t help myself there!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,398

    Ableton Link is the right way to create a standard. NKS is the wrong way. It's not a standard because only Native Instruments products can use the format. If they made it open so that all platform can implement it and use it license free then it would be worth the effort. As it stands it doesn't do much more than what DAWs like Bitwig and Studio One are already doing on their own. NI wants you to use Maschine or Komplete Kontrol even when all you are doing is loading a Kontakt library. Imagine being able to cut the middle man but still being able to have automatically mapped easy to understand parameters without having to do it manually in every DAW. That's something that would grab people's attention.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,605
    What do you mean only NI can use the format?
    Do companies have to pay a license fee to make their instruments/FX NKS ready? It's pretty much just converting the presets following the standard and having some thumbnails, user's can even do it themselves.

    I know they do have to pay for anything that uses Kontakt or Reaktor and that's understandable since it's their product and they also manage the backend license crap.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,398
    What I mean is imagine being able to load any NKS in another product that wasn't from NI (Logic, Bitwig, MPC, etc). I don't think that's possible now and NI doesn't provide an SDK or library allowing that as far as I know. NKS is only for Komplete Kontrol and Maschine. Pretty much make it DOA in my book.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,605
    Oh.. Hummmm **confused again** That's what KK is for, it loads NKS stuff in any DAW.

    I guess you mean being able to browse NKS stuff directly from 3rd party DAW's browsers, why would any of those companies do that? It makes zero sense business-wise. They would be basically promoting NKS products for free, they are more worried about creating/selling their own browser experience and other crap (instruments, fx, samples, etc...) that only work for their product and keeps you there in their ecosystem, not to mention that making a browser compatible with 2 different standards is probably a big undertaking.

    Do you honestly believe Akai (or any other major company) would add built-in NKS support in their browser? Seems a bit naive to me. Dont get me wrong tho, I am all for sharing the documentation for the standard, even if only small indie devs used it would still be very beneficial.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  16. AntonA1

    AntonA1 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,710
    Heya,
    Indeed...I kind of addressed this in my reply to Tempsperdu. I think they’d have to create overlapping versions that you could toggle between (or something)?

    That’s not how they’ve been approaching it thus far, but if they did go for a complete redo, it would be a way of keeping everyone on board.

    I feel they do need to break out of the limitations and confines they set for Maschine if they want to go the DAW route. How they’re handling it now is clumsy due to those limiting paradigms (imho).

    I’m not too bothered either way. I would just love to see Maschine reach its full potential rather than be an expansion cash cow.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,766
    Maybe they just went mute because they actually haven't been doing anything...............................................................:D
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  18. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,398
    Akai would definitely build it into their products. They've done it before. Why wouldn't they? What DAW doesn't want that? Bitwig kind of did something like that on their own with U-He plugins. Imagine loading Kontakt (or any plugin that support NKS) in Studio One and having all of you presets already mapped and macros setup in S1 no work required from the user. Imagine opening that same plugin in Logic and having the same experience. If all it took was a standard format that any plugin maker can use to easily create maps (maybe using PresetMagician) and that works in all DAWs with no further work from them? Thats a game changer.

    The NKS format is just that a format. Like you said most DAW makers have their own browsers etc. However what they don't have is a format that allows 3rd parties to easily hook and map their presets without requiring them to do so for every DAW manually. Logic and Live are extremely popular DAWs, how many mapped presets do you see for U-He plugin with those DAWs, or Waves, or Arturia, or NI etc? There is an opportunity there imo.

    As it stands NKS is just for NI hardware. That's it's main purpose. To make Maschine and their keyboards easier to use. I don't use NI hardware anymore it's completely useless to me. I don't see a point in using Komplete Kontrol, it's a waste of resources, especially if all I want to do is browse presets. I just load up Kontakt and look for the presets I need. KK is not adding anything to the experience other than another walled garden NI is trying to lock me into.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Frankknuck

    Frankknuck NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    103
    to answer the initial question of the thread, I think they went mute because song layer is dead :cool:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,766
    The song layer is dead!!!


    Long live the song layer!!!!!! :eek::D