why does NI implement absolute NONE of the requested features in the updates?

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Frank P., Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    Oh man, what's going on here? Keep calm everybody. Let's be constructive. There is now way, anybody changes anything with anger and rudeness.

    It is a primitive behaviour, and it is born of helplessness and fear.

    Everybody knows this feeling, but let's not get unfriendly.
     
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  2. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    I think it’s quite special what happened here. People from NI allowing open criticism on their forums... try that with another company and see how that goes.

    On the other hand I get the frustration too. It’s not just ‘oh this product sucks, **** all y’all’. If you’re passionate about what you do, and you run into a disappointment like that, it is personal. It’s not even the money for the device, it’s time you put in, expectations you had. So it’s not like getting another tv, it can get heated.

    Certified said he’d tone it down too.

    So holy ****, guys.. I think something just got solved on the Internet.
     
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  3. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    I understand that very well.
    But this is not the way it works. Open criticism is important as we live (thank god) in an open-minded democracy.

    One can do express the frustration in other words. In sometimes more diplomatic words. That should be standard anywhere.
     
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  4. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    389
    No you clearly don’t understand that very well. You just say that and then force your standard on others. Demonstrating that you don’t understand what I just said. Nice example of what diplomatic language is actually used for... confuse, diffuse, distract.

    Where I’m from the standard is: say what you mean, mean what you say.

    I have zero use for diplomatic words. NI has zero use for my diplomatic words if they want to improve Maschine. Maybe for you Maschine is like a TV set or a toaster, just a thing you own dispassionately. For me my music means a little bit more than that.
     
  5. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    How would you know that I didn't understand you? Just because I do not act like you in this kind of situations?

    Everybody can chose words in an appropriate manner. If you can't, I am sorry for you. Expressing feelings without to attack others is an adult way to discuss things.
     
  6. mezzurias

    mezzurias NI Product Owner

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    2,404
    Wow. This is the first time I’ve seen an NI rep have a passionate response about anything (even if it’s to criticize a forum user). It’s progress I guess?
     
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  7. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    389
    Read this out loud, please. Christ man, can you hear yourself? What is this? Kindergarten? Let's all sing along now:
    "A is for Appropriate. No bad wordies, kids.. when we insult someone we use a subtle condenscending tone, like the passive aggressive muppets we are. B is for Boomer..."

    Maybe this stuff works on your kids at home, but like you say... we're adults. Don't assume you get to tell me what's appropriate or not. No one asked you to. No one put you in charge. I've gotten along absolutely fine being the straight talker that I am so I'm not looking for your advice. People appreciate that about me.. some don't but they're usually not that relevant anyway.
    Don't assume you know what I do, or why I do it. Don't assume it's not considered.. maybe it is, right down to the avatar alongside it. And don't assume everybody is as dull, humourless, condenscending and easily offended? Don't assume you can talk to down to people, just because you don't agree or don't understand them. Just some life advice from one adult to another. See? I can do subtly condenscending too..

    Once again, I didn't attack anyone on a personal level.. I just understand both sides all too well. I get certifiedbeatz' frustration becuase it's my frustration. Maybe for you it's not a big deal.. for some people it is. Suppose you had gigs booked this weekend? Which you can't do now. Suppose you had clients waiting for projects you promised them, which they already paid for? Sorry folks, I can't work now.. but they promised a fix would be there real soon!!!! Honest!!! This time it's different!!! Suppose you live off the beats you sell to rappers? Suppose you don't have the luxury of living in an open-minded democracy or if 600 Euro is an actual CRAPLOAD of money to you? Yeah, you get pissed off about it...and that's not always gonna be diplomatic. Tell me, do you get your panties in a twist everytime someone uses a bad word or expresses a negative sentiment? Or just when you don't happen to agree with them?

    NI seems to understand that perfectly well, you just don't, apparently since you feel the need to come after me and talk to me like I'm a child... I'd like to see you try that in real life.. that would be hilarious. I also didn't use it as an opportunity to advertise my new setup (which is amazing, thanks) or to slag off anyone who still uses and loves their Maschines..

    Before this, I've worked in very similar positions to the NI guys on here, at a similar company... just in another branch of the industry.
    My clients wouldn't come to a forum to complain though, they had lawyers for that. So I understand all too well what kind of situation they are in and all the different pressures that you get in a company like that. I think they're handling it admirably.. which I've said too. I haven't gotten warnings from them, that one got me a like. In another topic you'll also find me singing the praises of Massive X which, tbh, I wouldn't have expected to be doing. So there's that.. Certifiedbeatz took it a bit overboard, got called out on it and after some back and forth agreed to remain critical but tone it down... which I thought was a cool way to handle from both sides. Which I said and then you go kindergarten cop on me. Donnie... please..

    Let's just agree we feel very sorry for each other.
     
  8. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

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    1,230
    Whilst I agree with a lot of what you said in your whole message, this is something that I keep coming across, not just with NI, not just DAWs, but with operating systems and updates to anything on a user's computer: if you are a professional, i.e. you are making your living from working with a computer, using software, you should be taking regular backups, and you should be taking a backup prior to installing any kind of update so that you can roll back in the event of the excrement hitting the fan. I think most clients in 2019 would walk away and cut their losses if you told them an update broke your workflow and you don't have a backup to restore to, that would set off a lot of alarm bells for me that they can afford xyz software and hardware, yet don't invest in a boring $50 HDD to back up to, or even pay a few bucks a month to use a cloud based backup service.

    Most touring musicians with any kind of sense understand that you get your rig sorted in advance, and once it works, you don't touch it until your time playing out has come to an end for a few months, or more ideally if the budget is there, create a second rig (or I hope a third because you should be taking a backup computer out with you to shows) to duplicate your setup onto and work from that if you're going to be on the road almost constantly but want to take advantage of new developments like bug fixes or new features. Always read the changelogs.

    Going back a decade before updating your workstation regularly became relatively common, along with using your workstation for things other than work, these things used to be dedicated workstations that were airgapped (not connected to the web) and not used for anything but the sole purpose of audio, and they would literally be updated every several months or years, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

    If someone configures Windows 10 correctly, they won't get automatic updates that force them to update, doesn't even matter that it's connected to the internet, likewise with OSX. Most computers have an OOBE with relatively ideal settings for consumers, there's a good reason why this is the case.

    There was another thread on here that really fetishized the concept of being able to make music without using a computer because apparently "computers suck" and standalone hardware (that's also a computer...) is "more reliable". If in 2019 someone is having a bad experience with their desktop computer then they're either long overdue for an upgrade in either specs, cooling, peripherals or ergonomics, it's misconfigured, they aren't following good practices, or they're just ignorant. I say this all the time, even to hobbyists: if you don't know what you're doing with a computer then the best $100 you can spend is an hour of a professional's time to setup your computer with the correct drivers, an update schedule that you're in control of, automated backups, optimizing the priority of your processes, disabling unneeded OS features etc.

    With electronics, expect it to break at some point. If you aren't planning for SHTF then wake up and start, because this will happen at some point. Before you learn any further musical theory or buy any more synths, effects or instruments, sort your computer out if you are intending to record in any professional capacity because there is absolutely zero excuse in the real world.

    Getting angry with a company for trying to improve their product on bleeding edge builds when you willingly updated to the latest version is all on the user, not the developer. In the same way that you're responsible for delivering or performing, you're also responsible for your rig. No excuses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  9. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    I know very well what I am talking about. And you know exactly nothing about me.

    What I suppose or intend to say doesnt work for you or isn't your kind of style. Thats okay.

    I could answer in the same, as you call it 'straight', manner, but this wouldn't change anything.

    If it is an insulting language for defending something I did not suppose, is what you call straight, I am not interested in an conversion. You might think about that you are not the only person in the world and others may be different than you.
     
  10. certifiedbeatz

    certifiedbeatz NI Product Owner

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    1,218
    I will say this is a sensitive forum.. in american especially where im from we speak from the heart and if u can't take it stay in the house.. i have been here for 8 years and heard all the promises...
     
  11. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    For me, there's nothing wrong with speaking from the heart. Or talking straight. I do this all the time.

    But in my opinion there is a difference between being straight or talking from the heart and being rude or getting personally and crossing someones personal border.

    Thats my point of view and you are welcome to see things different.

    For me, things are said. Now, please let's get back to topic :)
     
  12. lwj|localspace

    lwj|localspace NI Product Owner

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    389
    HammyHavoc Well, I hear you there. That's precisely the reasoning behind removing Maschine from my workflow.. before this particular **** hit the fan. Because I already had a bad feeling things would go this way. Call it prior work experience.. lol.
    It sucks to be right though. I still have Maschine projects I'd like to finish, and I still think it's a cool device in concept. I don't want it to be bad. Aside from keeping back-ups, I'm always on the lookout for bottlenecks. I don't want to read every change log, keep an eye on every update hoping it won't break anything or force me to roll back. I'm a musician, not a systems administrator (anymore) ;) I'm really not even that interested in the technical side of it.. just want to make some tunes when I can. I can't live off just that (yet) and if I could I wouldn't want to have rely on it. So I can't afford to keep around an extra system just in case. Having to invest in a new DAW, controller, learn that.. etc.. that's significant for me. Money-wise.. but time-wise especially because I'm already juggling a thousand priorities at once. I can't afford to sit there for an hour or so while updates roll back or Maschine re-scans my library again.. that's the hour I got ;)

    Totally agreed that ditching a computer for a computer-in-a-box isn't very smart. But I guess for the people that are interested in that, raw performance isn't much of a concern anyway. If they feel they make better music that way, it's always gonna be worth it to them. I make better music with a simple setup and limited options for sure.

    Old Mike Perfect, then don't talk to me. I didn't ask you to. You had to insert yourself with that sanctimonious gibberish. Also, it's 'conversation' not 'conversion'.. little Freudian slip there? I don't pretend to know or understand you, just going by what you say to me and you come across like a hypocrite hiding behind your fake politeness. If you insult me in an off hand manner, you can expect one back.. you should take your own advice to heart. Have a nice life.
     
  13. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

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    486
    Oh man, this is almost funny.
    You are right. If it makes you happy trying to degrade others, keep on. Doesn't bother me at all, I know how to take this.

    I'm everything but hypocritical. This is your perception. Be happy with it.
     
  14. certifiedbeatz

    certifiedbeatz NI Product Owner

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    1,218
    why does NI implement absolute NONE of the requested features in the updates?

    lets get back on topic..

    I believe they don't because they have different teams working on projects with lead times that need to hit the floor for testing some get there sooner than others. Like all companies there a direction for all there products and obstacles like bugs and user request get in the way. it hard to test against new ideas and old..
     
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  15. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,421
    By your logic then companies that do deliver requested features would not experience any of the above, however obviously they do.

    Frankly it's obvious why - marketing is 100% in charge of strategy, focus and direction...they are basically in charge.. they are the rock stars and I suspect many of them have hardly touched the product...They would rather get surveys and tick boxes ticked then learn the issues themselves... They would find that too nerdy, that's for techies.

    ...unlike the developers who clearly know the product inside and out.

    It takes one to know one, I've worked for these sort of companies myself.
     
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  16. certifiedbeatz

    certifiedbeatz NI Product Owner

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    1,218
    In IT where I worked for 20 years and left the new platform is push to clients and see who complains not enough bodies to test all..
     
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  17. Old Mike

    Old Mike NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    486
    It's hard to say from 'outside'.
    Things and opinions could have changed internally after promises were made.

    Dictation of money, leaders or change of developers. May others know more about this.
     
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  18. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,421
    Well that's agile design, almost everybody does it...

    "Release early, release often".
     
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  19. certifiedbeatz

    certifiedbeatz NI Product Owner

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    1,218
    hotfix is not always the answer when users have outdated drivers and software that cannot support the change.. Dont get me going that is why i Moved to Comm Enginerring.. lol
     
  20. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

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    2,126
    I'm going to surprise people perhaps a little by saying that I do believe that they are now working on at least some of the features that users have asked for. Kai has said as much and we owe it to him and the other developers to give them a chance to show that is the case and in doing so paradoxically putting them more on the spot if they don't. :D

    None of us can change the past and the 'mistakes' that have been made. This isn't the developers fault. They can only do what they are allowed and / or paid to do. The management has decided that the priority is the revenue streams from expansions, sounds and new controllers. That is pretty disrepectful to the long term users but that is not in any way the developers fault. There does seem a willingness now that there hasn't been previously for at least some to accept accountability. It is perhaps unfortunate that those responsible for ignoring the users are also the ones that decline any public response to the users but are very happy to tell all and sundry at trade shows and the like how they have everything sorted for 'the future of music and possibly even sound.' which perhaps says an awful lot as to how we got to this far from ideal place but just maybe something is filtering through their arrogance and we are actually going to see some proper traction. Lets hope so for everyone's sake. All this long term dismay is far from appealing.:p
     
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