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Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Frank P., Jun 27, 2019.
Off Topic...free advertising .. Chemicals are using a Mk 3 at Glastonbury
In the country where I live Native Instruments have technically broken Consumer Law (by promising song mode) and owners of Maschine Jam here can legally by right demand and are entitled to a full refund that the Manufacturer/Distributor has to provide under the law.
If too many (multiple) complaints are made against Native Instruments they can also be fined up to $500,000.00 AUD for misleading their customers.
Still think they haven't done anything wrong?
I don't owe NI anything tempsperdu !
Cos I'm paid in full...
Yo what happened to peace?
And Mick @ NI
This isn't why you can't say anything. You've got it the wrong way around...
The reason you get "heard it all before" is because it's true.
BUT, the reason you can't say anything is because you've not been honest, timely or consistent for about 7 years or so in regards to Maschines development.
If you made good on the promises that date beck at least 8 years, there wouldn't be any responses like that.
This has gone on for so long that users here don't trust you. I certainly don't anyway, and I can only ever speak for myself.
I think it's less about "heard it all before,"and more about "please for the love of God do what you've already said you were in the process of programming years ago!"
I don't need to hear any promises; I assume you as a company will not follow through. I assume it's a lie, to soften people up for something new. Or a clever piece of marketing that you'll drop later (song layer).
I can see threads (was on threads) started in 2010 and on the record sessions from then onwards (maybe earlier), with NI devs chiming in on, with agreement, about where maschine was heading, that make any kind of statement or promise now seem totally ridiculous.
And a lie.
So yeah you might get "heard it all before," but that is totally on you.
(As a company, not you as an individual; you seem decent)...
Who has ever said they haven't done anything wrong????????
Mick isn't the company. Mick at least has the courage to come online and talk to the users. The 'people' who made those lies won't accept responsibility for them and nor will they come online to account for themselves. but look on the bright side... they will tell everyone how they are going to 'democratise music'
Such a funny term!
All this won't get you anywhere my guy.
Mick @ NI Keep doing your thing on here.
All what? Writing a post in a forum? You don't say...
You should've noticed I don't make any feature requests or come here with any expectations these days.
That was the point of the post... I don't think you understood it.
But I'm allowed to state my opinion right? Just like you...
I choose to believe him too, so far he has been truthful, blaming everyone for one person's mistake (that actually came from good intentions) is not right in my book, so until he "lies" I'll believe. Putting the responsibility on devs is also unfair, devs dont pick what has priority or should be worked on.
The communication has improved, it's far from perfect and maybe it won't ever be but it's clearly better so that has been a tiny step forward.
AFAIK and my magic crystal ball tells me Kai is the Maschine Product Owner since September 2017 and the Lead PO since February 2019, the song-layer-unicorn was "promised" (not an accurate word but ok...) in 2016 by Florian who was Director of Products at the time and not long after has become Vice President of Products... I think that kind of explains a lot for those who can read between the lines. If dates and titles arent 100% accurate I blame my ball.
Exactly, I agree with the first part, not the second tho.
Mick is a blessing here, regarding the specific topic: he pointed out the user request sub-forum after I re-structured it (for those unaware that's how I ended up as a Moderator, with a thread similar to this one) to his colleagues semi-privately who had more power to make them happen... He didn't have to do that, no one asked and its not his job but he did it, and I for one appreciate the gesture regardless if it had an impact at the time or not.
However, I also dont think Florian "is the company" neither, announcing the unicorn was an attempt of communication that backfired once the plans changed, who knows if it was him who changed them or it was a higher up decision to scrap it for the sounds.com thing. If he were to post apologizing like some users seem to want it would be received badly, it would be a lynching thread... so what's the point? Other NI officials have already publicly admitted the mistake, and as said before by them also they are currently trying not to make the same mistake again by announcing things too soon.
I am not trying to make excuses for others, I am not on the payroll so there's nothing in it for me, just putting a couple of things in perspective since there's a lot of naive posts here, i dont mean it in an offensive way either.
I have never thought Florian was the 'company'. I don't think anyone has been properly open about what happened there and the thing for me is the fall guy for the company has to be the head because even if someone under him makes a mistake it is his reponsibility to try and 'correct' any problems. Now OK in the real world things aren't often that simple.
I know Core was before 'my time' but there seems to be a pattern here of (over) ambitious concepts and promises that are then discarded as if it and its effect on the users doesn't matter. Consequently we have the toxicity evident here and elsewhere where no one on the staff feels they can say anything as they won't be believed yet by not saying anything at times the mistrust gets compounded.
For instance one of the major worries brought up again in this thread and 'started' by Daniel Havers comments is the very risible idea of a mandatory subscription. What would it take to put that baby to rest .... a simple comment of no we aren't going to pursue that avenue. Doesn't matter who from but it has never appeared and so the distrust and worry about that occuring still exists compounded by Daniels recurring comments about his admiration for Adobe.
The 'honesty' about sounds.com was refreshing if galling.. .. even if it became 'public' by a leak and the seeming willingness to actually engage with the users is promising but I don't see any change in managements attitude towards the users. There is still no engagement there at all and no real sign of any consideration. I don't feel it should be the developers who are having to face that residue though they seem to be doing so admirably.
I'm not sure that's the correct lesson to be learned. Instead, make the words mean something this time.
I agree with you tempsperdu, except for the "mandatory" part, I never saw that mentioned anywhere. The whole mandatory-subscription paranoia is a bit offtopic tho, why state that it won't ever happen? It might as well become the industry standard 5 years from now, no one knows how that will turn out yet.. Better not promise things that can turn out to be a lie later... No?
If I say I respect an EDM producer and his marketing skills it doesn't mean I'll start making EDM tomorrow and completely disregard my fan base... I feel like people totally overdramatize the subscription thing and basically suffer over anticipation for something that might not even happen., at least not in a mandatory sense.
The way the thread was going showed that was the way some at least were reading it, myself included. For me if I saw someone was worried about something I'd try and placate them and would expect if I didn't put their mind at rest then it would probably increase their concern and add to a sense of distrust.
I hope it is paranoia as I doubt I'd be willing to go down that route however much I like the products. I'm sure there are many who would love to push it to be the industry standard but that isn't to democratise anything it's to make sure (in theory) of constant revenue streams. I'd also like to know what the reality of that was in terms of people saying .OK if they are going to pull that one I'll just get a cracked copy. You treat people without any respect you can't expect them to be angels.
I understand the concern, it's pretty valid what I dont understand is the expectation of it being addressed officially, it doesn't seem like a realistic expectation to me. Personally, if I worked for the company I for sure wouldn't like to be the one saying "dont worry, that won't happen anytime soon" just in case a higher up then changes his mind and my name is then involved in an announcement I wouldn't be proud of, for ever.
Avid have had similar scenarios with pro tools. Consumers complaining for new features and about bugs. They often do officially address the concerns of their customer base.
I can understand that but then you could also say at this moment we do not have that as a potential option instead it hovering like a nasty smell in the background and I suppose that's compounded by the fact that I have zero trust or faith in Daniel Havers and he's certainly not doing anything at all to change that perception.
Fair. Do you believe that if they were to move to sub-only they would warn their userbase first tho? Many companies communicate way better than NI, some even have plain conversations with customers on their forum, that's amazing and I do envy those however I believe in the case of NI they need to deliver something before they try that to re-establish some form of trust, but that's just my view on it.
Cant argue with that.
With social media, this is the best time for music gear companies to have a good connection with their customers. What's the fine line between honesty and business? Of course they can't make everybody happy all the time, but the debate of "profits vs promises" it's somewhat flawed from the start. Because we STILL buy their products knowing beforehand we can't expect much from some of these companies once we leave the store.
Personally, I think it's crazy that if Maschine hardware and software came out in 2009, that still now in 2019 we have to rely on 3rd party DAW's to (somewhat) finish a project from start to end. Keep in mind, I am NOT expecting for Maschine software to be a ProTools or Studio One 100% killer, but for christ sake, 10 YEARS have passed and still the software is lacking some major features that most users are waiting for. In the meantime they were able to put out Maschine Mikro, Mk2, Mikro Mk2, Studio, Jam, Mk3 and Mikro Mk3, not even counting all the other products like keyboards, interfaces, dj controllers and mixers, expansions, etc. And who can't forget their new precious baby soundsdotcom...(cue Diplo and Guetta blabbering).
So obviously at some point in the journey NI decided that Maschine (software) was not a priority for whatever reason. Yes we've had some decent new features but it's still not enough... If I spend $300, $500 or $1000 on a product, I think as a customer I deserve answers on features THAT WERE PROMISED. If anybody thinks those demands are not realistic, how about this: Donald "Hush Money" Trump is the president of the United States. Now that's some sad and crazy s***.