Why does pr-52/53 play back some presets "wrong" after recording midi notation?

I can confirm this on logic 5.x mac, and logic 5.x windows....
also on chainer at www.xlutop.com
other hosts tested work ok(sonar, orion)
it was an irritating problem from pro52 and i *presumed* pro 53 would fix it...
Classic example, load the "arp pluck 2" preset..play away.. record what you played into logic's sequencer...play back what you just recorded..PRESTO! different sound!! It's as if "part" of the sound that makes up that preset has disappeared...weird..temporary solution, change presets then switch back...works..but hit stop on logic then play agin...back to problem..There were a couple of other presets from memory that did this....obviously i have not gone through every single one and tested.....this is totally and continually reproducible..the fact that it happens on mac also indicates a bug interfacing with certain hosts....Even saving the preset and reloading via logics native pst doesn't solve it.....trust me it's very frustrating, and even weirder because none of the knobs on pro 52, pro 53's surface have changed or budged!! yet somehow the sound plays back different!! Can someone confirm this so i know i am not insane..please??

 

I have never heard from problems like this before, but will try to reproduce it tomorrow.

 

Same here.... to moderator.

I can't believe that the latest message on board is on this subject, because I just got off the phone with EMAGIC, here in US regarding exactly the same issue. They did not know about it...
As a matter of fact, I read about this in NI document when I was installing PRO-53, now I cannot find where I read it, obviously... But I remember it stated that this is a "known issue" - LOGIC sends a "reset message" to PRO-53 and it has to be disabled in order to reproduce patches correctly. Funny enough my ABSYNTH doing just fine, so does KONTAKT, PPG etc.
I went through the same story yesterday - found the Patch #114 "Butterfish", liked to use it, but as soon as I hit RECORD button in LOGIC and start playing the sound is not the same sound anymore... To get the original sound back you have to re-select it in PRO-53 again. But it is not of any help - you cannot record it anyway, making the whole PRO-53 pretty much useless....
I am sure it will be resolved somehow soon. Here are a lot of us LOGIC/NI users waiting...
Besides that it will be cool to know the steps to resolve it, I have one more suggestion to NI and EMAGIC: I think it will be very much benefitial for users of EMAGIC and NI if you will establish some kind of friendly connection to solve things like this as they appear. It seems like this issue was known for a while, you even mentioned about it in your documentation - but why it was not solved by now? Users do not care whos fault it was - we just want to buy and use your software. That's all. Isn't it what you want us to do as well? Lets face it - we all will benefit from this! Thanks for your help with upcoming solution! - Russo-

 

To Steffen.... Any luck...?

Hi Steffen,

Did you have any luck at least at reproducing the problem we were discussing here? Please, let us know.
Thanks for your help!
-Russo-

 

well at least you confirmed i'm not nutz, Russo, unless we both are LOL.....

 

Just tried butterfish, yep, same deal(
Nice patch that one.....

This really *has* to be NI's fault, or all their other synths wouldn't work properly, and the dozens of other synths that work perfectly in logic wouldn't....i really would appreciate a fix, it can't be THAT hard to do...

 

Wait to blame....

Hello,

I would wait to blame who's fault it is. And frankly, I don't care - I just want to get a workaround for now and fix for a near future. Otherwise I cannot use this plug. My 4.8.1 Platinum does exactly the same on Mac OS 8.6 (my old-dog computer). So, we are certainly not crazy here....grrrr......
You right though, my FM-7 and Absynth work fine.

Lets get patient and wait for Steffen. I am sure he will bring the solution soon.
Who said Santa Klause does not exist...?

Steffen... Where are you....

-Russo-

 

Hi,

sorry for the late answer, but i didn't find time to check this till today. The problem is the following: Logic sends a reset on CC 1 (mod wheel), also when the option is turned off in the Logic preferences. But the mod wheel is often used as an important part of the sound design, because it controls the lfo modulation depth, and so you don't here the lfo anymore after logic thinks it must reset the CC 1.

Until Emagic fix this (it's definitly a bug in there host to ignore this option for VSTi's) you can use the following workaround:

1. Enable MIDI Learn at the Pro-53
2. Click on the Mod-Wheel
3. Assign the Mod-Wheel to CC3 (enter 3 in the preset name display)
4. Disable MIDI Learn
5. Save Controller Map to "DefaultMap.txt" (overwrite the old one)
6. Open the Enviroment at the Logic
7. Select the Click&Ports View
8. Insert a Transformer after "Input View" and before the "to Recording & Thru" object
9. Open the Transformer and set his values to these you see in the attached screenshot

After this, you can still control via the Keyboard Mod-Wheel the Pro-53 Mod-Wheel, because the Mod-Wheel events are copied as CC3 events. And because
the Pro53 doesn't react on CC1, Logic will not set the Mod-Wheel to 0 anymore.

Bye,
Steffen

 

Ok, thanks Steffen...Of course the other workaround I have found is to just disable the mod wheel for that patch if you don't need it, or put a spec of modulation data autmation in the arrange page with your midi notatin...
cheers

 

Thanks for soultion, Steffen!
While I did not try it yet (I will do it tonight), we appreciate your help!

I still do not understand why this issue does not affect my FM7, Absynth or PPG etc.......?

One more thing, can you possibly contact EMAGIC regarding this problem? They get calls about this issue as well, but they don't have a solution, as far as I know. It also would be good if this problem will be "officialy noted" - then, in the next update either NI or EMAGIC will take care of it. Cooperation and partnership can do miracles

Thanks again!

-Russo-

 

This problem also happen when there is a parameter that is controlled by the mod-wheel and that is saved with the preset. Normally the Mod-Wheel is only used as a input-source for something like a modulation matrix and not direct connect to a parameter like in the Pro-53.

And we have already contacted Emagic because of this problem, because also Absynth-Users have run into the same problem.

Bye,
Steffen

 

Still, doesn't work.....

Hi Steffen,

I tried the workaround you suggested with creating TRANSFORMER object, but it doesn't work. Unfortunately. The idea you had makes a lot of sense. However, I think that the Modulation Reset that Logic sends also goes through the same TRANSFORMER.
I tried it several different ways - even creating Pro-53 MIDI instrument and inserting TRANSFORMER after that (in Audio Mixer Environment) and only then connecting it to an Audio Instrument Pro-53. No luck!
It is great that you got in touch with EMAGIC regarding this issue! I am sure they will fix it in the next Logic 6 update. The only downside is that considering that they just started shipping Logic 6.0 - the next update will not be released soon... Until then, we would love to use our Pro-53.
Any thoughts?
May be you can come up with workaround together with EMAGIC guys, until it is fixed?

-Russo-

 

Hmm, of course i have tested the workaround on my computer, here it worked flawlessly. Maybe the implementation of Logic PC and Logic Mac differ at this point. I don't have an idea about another possible workaround (if you don't want to buy a hardware midi-mapper).

Bye,
Steffen

 

No go.....

Hi Steffen,

Thanks for your reply.
I don't think any of us will buy a hardware MIDI re-mapper. Seems like price paid for PRO-53 should be enough to be able to use it without problems.
I also don't think that Logic has different MIDI implementation on Mac vs PC. There is simply no reason to program differently - just more work to do.
If you ran out of solutions - it is fine. I can understand that.
I will try to figure this out with EMAGIC. May be they can explain why your solution did not work in my case and help.
Thanks for your time.

-Russo-

 

It seems a bit late to reply on this, but if it would help some lost soul...

Why not use a filter inside the transformer that filters just CC1=0 and lets everything else pass thru unaltered? Thus only the reset message gets filtered out.

One would think that using the new automation features in Logic 5/6 is more straightforward, unfortunately the automation does not always see its own data.


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