Will there be a hardware-only version or not?

Discussion in 'KONTROL F1' started by popoff44, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. popoff44

    popoff44 Forum Member

    Messages:
    35
    Hi,

    I know this question has kind of already been raised in other threads, but there is a bunch of other things there too which seems to be distracting people from the main issue. I would love for someone from NI to answer this because no matter how I look at it the price that's been announced and what you get for it just doesn't make sense to me.

    Here is a couple of sample scenarios.

    My situation - I already own a full license of Traktor Pro 2 and use it with other controllers. I want to add F1 to my setup. Why should I be paying extra for the software I already own? You could say the software is bundled and is just a nice addition, but even if you look at it that way, realistically, what do I need a second license of Traktor for? So I can sell it online to someone else? Can I even do that legally or is it "bundled" with the hardware and not supposed to be sold? :)

    An even simpler scenario - Let's say I'm completely new to Traktor and don't own a full license yet. I want to create a setup with two F1's in it which makes sense considering the nature of the new "remix decks". I can buy two controllers, but why do I need two copies of the same software? I don't, but I'm still being asked to pay for it twice.

    Considering the price point of the F1, that Traktor license is a big part of it. I just don't understand why it's there and really hope there will be another version without it for less money. Otherwise, Xone K2 it is :)
     
  2. Freak Show

    Freak Show Forum Member

    Messages:
    134
    sell the copy.

    The S4 and S2 come w/ software. Maybe people didn't complain that much when they came out cause most people were still using Tpro, and to get to Tpro2 u needed to pay. So NI could charge everybody for the update if they wanted to be greedy and that would also shut people up.

    Basically, the price is what it is. You dn't have to buy the controller and you also dnt need to hold on to the spare license if you buy.
     
  3. popoff44

    popoff44 Forum Member

    Messages:
    35
    I respect your opinion, but you are stating the obvious and that doesn't really help with anything. Of course I have a choice of not buying the product or not watching a specific TV channel or not eating certain type of food or whatever. The point I'm trying to make is that I like the product, but I won't buy it on the terms that were announced. Moreover, I have a feeling that there will be a LOT of people who will agree with me. In my view, buying a single F1 controller is only going to be good value if you don't already own a Traktor license. Buying two just doesn't make sense regardless of what you own for software. And spending precious time trying to sell unneeded software licenses is just not for me. I have better things to do.

    P.S. It was a different story with S4/S2. When I bought my S4, I already had a Traktor license, but I didn't mind getting another one bundled with the controller because it's an all-in-one solution. I have since sold my S4 to another person together with the software it came with. That made perfect sense. The F1 offering doesn't not.

     
  4. Freak Show

    Freak Show Forum Member

    Messages:
    134
    I'm just happy that they made the update free for TP2 users. They couldve easily justified the cost of the F1 by not making the upgrade free, and try to squeeze as much money out of this thing as possible. I don't like the F1, but if I did I wouldnt mind getting one and selling the software and basically getting the F1 for almost what the X1 costs. I understand where you're coming from tho and I also understand what they're doing by packaging it. Who really knows if it will hurt its sales
     
  5. Carl Hern

    Carl Hern Forum Member

    Messages:
    116
    To buy or not to buy?... that is the question? I personally believe this things are gonna sell like hot cakes!
    I like cake! :D
     
  6. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    468
    the software is FREE with the controller so there will be no price difference
     
  7. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    The software is NOT FREE. It's part of the cost. Calling it free is like saying that Windows is free when you buy a new PC.
     
  8. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,342
    X1 and F1 are similar style controllers so you'd think they should've been a similar price but the F1 is a lot more because it comes with TP2 so the software is not free... its expensive if you already own TP2 and other related products.... do a deal NI... you know what we already own due to product registartion so let us loyal users get a discount.... I'll be your bestest friend... honest.. and i'll let ya come to my party...!
     
  9. clix

    clix New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Yes, right, I would like to have a discont too because...

    I own a full scratch pro license for years, because of we get the update for free anyway it is a little bit hard, another idea is otherwise...IF...I buy this Bundle, do I have another License to install on two more machines? At the moment I m running two, is this possible, or, will recognise the activation center the 2.5 as only the one and only update license on my very first and second machine? :) Yes, My Studio Macpro uses one for adding from server to playlist ..cutting...another laptop- of course...the mobile mixing machine, additional? My girlfriends MacbookPro..havin a quick backup...and one laptop for guest dj`s to go sync in Studio for example?...
     
  10. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    219
    That's a really bad point. Your talking about two companies involved here. It's not in Microsoft's interest to give away the software, so they charge for it.

    NI make the hardware and software, so it can be in their interest to waive the software fee to drive hardware sales.

    More to the point in a closed system such as Apple - do you think people are out there that ask if you can buy a MacBook without OSX because they may already have a version from say an old laptop or a purhased copy? I'd imagine not.

    I'd imagine that from now on - any hardware form NI will come with Tx.x. no more LE etc.

    :angry:
     
  11. ragavang43

    ragavang43 Account Suspended

    Messages:
    37
    To buy or not to buy?... that is the question? I personally believe this things are gonna sell like hot cakes!

    me too like cakes very much.. can i buy!
     
  12. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    @Ritchie_Jay: If my point is bad, yours is worse.

    It's not in NI's interest to give Traktor Pro away for free either, and that's why they don't. It's included in the cost. They took the price of the software into consideration when determining the the price of the bundle. Do you honestly believe that a $229 piece of software in a $279 software-hardware bundle is free? Or perhaps you think that we're actually getting the F1 for $50 with a purchase of Traktor?

    If they were to launch the F1 without Traktor Pro bundled in, then later bundle Traktor in at the same cost as a promotion, you could argue that it's free. But that's not the case here.

    The F1 and Traktor are not a closed system either. Traktor works without the F1, and the F1 works without Traktor (albeit not as well if you're not using Traktor).
     
  13. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    219
    Take for example then the X1's.

    they originally shipped with LE

    they ran a promotion to free upgrade to pro 2

    therefore the software was actually free during the promo

    how is this not the same as just running the promo from the beginning?
    ---
    And while we are at it they did the same even on the Audio 2 DJs for a while, ive forgotten how much the unit was then, but you could also get free T2 with it for while if my memory serves me correctly.

    No change in price . just T2 thrown in.

    see the pattern here?
     
  14. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,342
    its all about the pound notes guys... its the same with every company on earth..!
    can you blame them for wanting to make as much money as possible..?
     
  15. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

    Messages:
    23
    Why do people keep asking the same old questions they already know the answer to?

    Do they think that if they keep asking that NI might change their business strategy?

    The fact is they are going after a different market other than the traditional dj who already has traktor. They are hoping that ableton users will switch and jump ship. It there for makes sense to budle the software for free with this new controller for those who dont have it.

    As for those that already do, NI do not care because past experience tells them that their loyal customers will buy it anyway. Look at the whole kore fiasco

    So stop complaining... Either buy it or dont.

    I know i will be, using my €100 voucher to boot.
     
  16. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    36
    The only person I see complaining here is you. You're complaining that (god forbid) people might want to discuss something...on a discussion forum!

    Your whole argument makes no sense anyway. Sure, the bundle attracts people who aren't already using Traktor. Are you going to try to tell us that selling a hardware-only version would somehow hurt those sales? Are you going to try to say that people who already have Traktor wouldn't be more likely to buy the thing if there was a cheaper version that only included what they needed?
     
  17. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    321
    I think the Mac Book analogy doesn't fit completely either. Yes, it is true. You need OSX to use the Mac, and you also need TP to be able to use the F1 standalone. But I, as an S4 owner, can use the F1 without the software it comes with, because I already have it.

    Apple doesn't sell it's Mac peripherals with OSX, does it?

    And that is the issue. For most NI customers the F1 is going to be a peripheral for NI gear (or software) they already have. NI should be making two package for the F1. One with and one without the TP license. It is that simple. Whether they do it or not is up to them. Whether the NI customers will buy it or not, is up to them.

    But for sure, many current NI customers including myself would be just a bit happier to be able to buy the F1 as a peripheral piece of equipment with a possibly lower price.

    scamo
     
  18. Count Zero

    Count Zero ModerAUtor Moderator

    Messages:
    6,587
    Yes.
     
  19. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

    Messages:
    23

    Im not complaining at all, im sitting here patiently waiting for the f1.

    Not moaning on a message board that native are not going to sell their product in a way that suits me.

    I will just sell the spare license on. And my argument does make sense if you can see past the red mist mate.

    Why discount a hardware only version when they know most loyal customers will pay the price with traktor bundled with it anyway?

    It means more $$ in the bank for them. Now what Part of that doesn't make sense?

    Bottom line is.... Native could not give two shits what you think, they are a business and are out to make money. They will not be concerned whether you might not buy it because you already have traktor.

    They know that you will probably buy it anyway like everyone else.
     
  20. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    321
    Fortunately for NI, they make pretty good quality stuff, which means people pay for it, also when the price seems a bit steep.

    To market the F1 successfully, NI has to consider any and all business aspects and that includes the packaging, their target market, costs and margin. There are costs for the inclusion of the software into the package, for instance for the production of the DVD, installation manual, etc. There are also production costs for the software itself too, like the programmers pay and also the tools they need to program with and any overhead to manage everything. So, there is nothing "free" about the software being in the F1 package. There definitely needs to be and is ROIC for the software in the F1 price and that is where the mistake is being made.

    1. NI is basically going to end up seriously lowering the number of sales of the software licenses, because the used market will be flooded with much cheaper F1 licenses. That means the ROIC from single license sales will drop drastically. The fact most people will also buy two F1s because there are two remix decks to control (despite the "shift + encoder" to control both mixdecks with one F1) means each customer who gets two F1s will have at least one extra license at worst even two. I think NI will basically see its single license sales go down the toilet.

    2. The ROIC through the sale of the software in the F1 package isn't even close to that of the software sold as a separate license. So they are shooting themselves in the foot twice.

    You said it yourself, most people will want to buy it, so why not do it right?

    If I were NI, I would have done it differently.

    I would have packaged the F1 with Traktor LE and given the new (or old) customer a redeemable coupon to upgrade to Traktor Pro 2, which would considerably lower the final price of the upgrade. I would then sell the F1 for the hardware only price taking out the calculated margin for the software. That way, I make everyone completely happy and I still have a fairly stable market for my license sales. The customer who is new to Traktor buys the upgrade and basically ends up paying the original asking price of the F1 with the software. The customers who already owns Traktor Pro have to pay only the hardware price.

    I'd even come out with a double pack, which would be just a tick less expensive in total than two single F1s (where as the double pack price is my original asking price, the single F1 price is actually a tick more expensive). Remember, what is the target market? All those S4 and S2 and past TP2 buyers. I highly doubt the market for single F1 purchasers will be bigger than this group and adding the software to the F1 just isn't going to make it that much bigger. So it is a wasted effort. On the contrary, as I pointed out above, it is counterproductive to single TP2 license sales.

    But as I said before, I could care less about NI's financial welfare, other than I want them to continue making great stuff and that means they need to be financially sound to do so. The decision to bundle the software with the F1 is not a financially sound decision IMHO, so looking at both sides of the coin, the F1 sale, as it is, does worry me just a bit in the end.

    scamo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2012