Will there be a hardware-only version or not?

Discussion in 'KONTROL F1' started by popoff44, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. de wouzer

    de wouzer NI Product Owner

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    I dont understand NI comes with the offer of a cheap upgrade from TP1 to TP2 for an extra low price to celebrate TP2.5

    If I want to do something with the F1, I will have TP2.5 with the controller right?
     
  2. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    The official line from the site.

    Starting today, TRAKTOR PRO 2 software is available at a brand-new price point of only $89 / 79 € / 7,800 ¥. Or you can get it for free, since it’s now included with all DJ hardware – from the diminutive TRAKTOR AUDIO 2 to the flagship TRAKTOR KONTROL S4**.

    You going to eat humble pie, or what?
     
  3. popoff44

    popoff44 Forum Member

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    The latest announcement by NI clear things up quite a bit. Their new strategy makes sense and I'm actually happy they decided to go down that route. The only thing I still don't understand is why F1 is so damn expensive, but I guess that's not really up for a discussion. Luckily, there is a market full of options and nobody is forced to buy NI branded hardware to use with Traktor.
     
  4. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

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    No, why would I? If they told you that getting an F1 will make you the smartest person in the world, would you believe that too? When you go to buy a car, do you get excited about the free tires too?

    You can complicate things all you want, but the obvious reality is that if you have to pay them money to get it, it's not free. $89 is not free. $279 is not free. The only version of Traktor that's actually free is the demo.
     
  5. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    So how do explain the software now coming with the Audio 2, no extra cost. How is that not free?

    You're in checkmate. Give up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  6. popoff44

    popoff44 Forum Member

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    The software that people spent a lot of time and money developing and marketing is never free. The fact that they include it with some of the cheaper peripherals just shows how much a single license really costs.
     
  7. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    So how do explain the software now coming with the Audio 2, no extra cost. How is that not free?

    You're in checkmate. Give up.
     
  8. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    no extra cost for you does not mean it's been free.
     
  9. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    Hi Freshfluke.

    Im not sure who this comment is directed towards, or what exactly is the point your making. Would you mind elaborating to clear it up?

    Thanks.
     
  10. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    the software does not fall from the sky. there are quite some ppl who earn their money by developing and programming the software (let alone all the ppl who put their share marketing, website design, graphic design, manual writing/translating, etc pp to it).

    the money they get paid is real money, so to make/produce/sell the software costs real money - it's not "free".

    also, it still costs 79€ if you buy it from the shop, this is also not "free".

    but in the age of software piracy, NI has decided to move into a direction other music software companies did already quite some time: dongling software with hardware as much as possible, since hardware is sth you can not download.

    i hope it's now clearer what i meant.
     
  11. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    @DJ Freshfluke - Could you please make a final clarification.

    Is there any cost for the software to the user when he/she buys hardware.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  12. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    There is no cost to the user for the software other than the cost of the WHOLE package. NI has decided to lower the entry price of the software and also package all their hardware with the software. End of story. The fact they are making current customers who already own Traktor pay for licenses they don't need with the hardware seems to not phase NI. They want to flood the market with very cheap second hand licenses it seems.

    As for trying to thwart software piracy. I think you are off a bit there Freshfluke. The software has no dongle system. The thwarting comes, because the software is packaged with all hardware products and the price for the standalone software is so much lower, NI is shooting to take away the need to steal the software. Anyone interested in Traktor now can just buy it on Ebay for less than $30 or 20 Euros. I wonder if NI realizes their software sales will go bust with the flood of useless licenses.

    Again, this new marketing strategy is simply a stupid move on NI's part IMHO, especially for their current customers. I guess they just think current customers are already dead loyal, ignorant and willing to pay anything to get their hands on what's new drones. The more I think about this, the less attractive the two F1s I wanted to buy are getting.

    How about this NI? Instead of the licenses I don't need, I can return each of them and get the price of an upgrade (39,50 Euros) as credit towards a purchase in the future? That would be fair and I would then be very happy to take 2 F1s.

    scamo
     
  13. TraumaBeatsDrama

    TraumaBeatsDrama NI Product Owner

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    or you could just sell the 2 on Ebay and have the amount(or more) of an e-voucher. sure it would be easier if NI handled it, but they also can't give people hardware without software.
     
  14. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    I know. I just think NI are unfortunately forgetting their best customers for the F1 are going to be their own and selling the hardware to those customers with software they just don't need kills a lot of the attractiveness of the F1 (and any other product they may want to buy). It makes me think I am paying for something extra I simply just don't need.

    And Ebay won't be a choice either, because I will never get 40,- Euros for each license, when the market will be flooded with them. I'll be lucky to get 20 Euros or even sold at all.

    Oh, and what I am about to say is in general and not at anyone in this thread, on this forum or at any NI customer.

    One other thing that this marketing strategy will do. It will get even more wannabe DJs into the DJ communities. With the re-selling price of the software hitting rock bottom, this place and other online DJ communities are going to become a real drag, especially because a lot of young kids with no clue are going to feel they now have a right to come here and be belligerent about getting answers, like too many kids these days are. Anonymous = I can be a jerk. We have enough of those now with the software being relatively expensive as it is.:S Now that the market will be flooded....oh boy.

    scamo
     
  15. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

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    Scamo,

    What do you think you are going to achieve by keep pleading and suggesting about how NI market stratagy is wrong? Do you really think they are going to take notice?

    As for saying that their stratagy is stupid? Come on now, stop being a twit.

    This stratagy of making the software cheap yet concentrating on the hardware has really hurt Apple so much over the last 3 years. So much infact, they are now the biggest company in the world.

    The parallels between apples business model and Natives new streamlined approach to hardware with cheap software is uncanny. And to say this is a stupid move is clearly....

    Well stupid to be honest.

    Stop moaning and embrace the change.





    ---
    How long have you even been DJing?

    Not long by that pathetic ignorant comment.

    You have really just shown your true colours, to blame NI for a mass influx of wannabe dj's because everything is so cheap yet here you are moaning avout the price of the F1.

    Be thankful how cheap tech is these days. And what you can actually do with that tech.

    When i first started djing, the cost was unbelievable. £900 for two decks and a mixer plus £ 7-8 for each piece of vinyl. 10 years later you dont have to spend nearly a fraction of that price to be a dj. Yet still people moan because they think they are paying to much?

    What makes you any different than that kid who is now going to flood the market as a wannabe dj because his future hobby has now been made affordable?

    I think you should start to see more of the positives and less of the negatives, and as for the irony about this place becoming a real drag.... You should really read back to yourself what you have been posting.
     
  16. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't see the parallels to Apple at all.

    Apple doesn't sell OSX with its web cams, mouse pads or monitors. Do they?
    And yes, I expect NI to be listening. It is their customer forum, not ours. If they aren't listening, they are fools, as this is the richest source of marketing feedback they can ever get. Even with just one whining scamo in it.

    I like NI products a lot and up to this date, NI have been doing a pretty good job. Not perfect. Nobody is. My point and I'll keep making it is this new marketing strategy is disadvantageous to current customers, which is simply unfortunate. Will I buy two F1s? Most likely. Will I be totally happy with them. Not as much as I could be, because I AM paying for software licenses I just don't need. I would have rather had NI make the Mix Decks a plug-in for Traktor and pay extra for the plug-in, if they need to recoup money for that development. That way the customer always has the choice, which is always the smartest way to go. I don't have a problem paying for what I am getting. I do have a problem paying for something I just don't need or want.

    scamo
     
  17. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    Im going to try and get out of this thread.

    If Freshfluke say we are paying something for the licence. Fair enough. I aknowledge all i've argued against, I see it like this.

    When you look at the fact that now all hardware includes the software that didn't before and there is no price increase, you could say in relative terms that all said hardware has either dropped in price or the software is free. It's getting down to a philosophical perspective how the split is made more than anything. Glass half empty or half full.

    Which ever way it is I see that punter is winning. Its the same overall price, but you get a saleable licence. Thats a win for the punter.

    Either way Native Instruments are giving up either revenue in hardware or revenue in software, and people are complaining. It can only be good.

    If you bought an Audio 2 and even ebayed the software for $20 you'd be getting the hardware for $100. Thats a bargain. Its already a bargain @ $119.

    Having an extra licence or two could prove to be a life saver before a gig if youve run out of activations and need to rebuild asap and support is closed on the weekend.

    Saying that they are going to lose out of software licence sales for them may be true, however if they generate more profit and more users on the Traktor ecosystem (which would drive additional hardware sales in the future) from their new strategy then it is very very smart marketing, and im sure they have done their research.

    My whole point is it seems futile to keep arguing, you are getting more for less. Thats the bottom line.

    Peace out all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  18. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    "Either way Native Instruments are giving up either revenue in hardware or revenue in software, and people are complaining. It can only be good."

    I highly doubt they are giving up anything in their minds. You shouldn't think that either.

    But you are right. It is a philosophical issue. And the philosophy is definitely aimed at generating a bigger market. And even though I am not a performing DJ, I wonder if that is really a smart and boosting move for the DJ community, the real DJ community, who are their real customers.

    Maybe NI was taking this video seriously and thinks it actually does have merit. NI's new marketing philosophy is represented by the headphones.;)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtNChaprulw"]Spankers - Everyone's A DJ (Official Video HD) - YouTube[/ame]

    "Hello Kitty is a DJ!":p

    scamo
     
  19. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

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    No chap, you are a fool.

    Apple sell osx with their macs. And they keep it cheap. Osx lion was only £25 compared to windows minimum of £90+ they also keep their apps cheap while focusing on their hardware and now moving on to all in one intergration between their products. The exact same thing native is doing.

    You could say that traktor has now become their operating system that comes with all their hardware products.

    Your argument holds no water. You are entitled to your opinion but at the end of the day its just that.

    And i see you completly side stepped my other question regarding your silly comments about the market being flooded?

    Care to answer?
    ---
    Also you say about the customer should have the choice.

    Well a certain steve jobs said.

    Its not up to us to give customers what they want, its up to us to give them what they need!

    You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new.
     
  20. Ritchie_Jay

    Ritchie_Jay NI Product Owner

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    Its fact scamo, if they are offering the Audio 2 (and all harware products) for no more cost to the user and bundling the software now. They are either giving the software away or dropping the hardware price.

    The philisophical conundrum is that it really could be either situation (free software or reduced price hardware) or in between somewhere, it doesnt matter. For you to then say that I'm right it is a philisopical issue, then make reference the their marketing strategy is just silly. I wasn't referring to that.

    What does matter is that you are actually getting the equivalent of the software for free relative to how it was before they changed the stategy. Which has been my argument all along. I should of added the word equivalent in in my prior arguments rather than arguing the software is actually free.

    Youre not a performing DJ and your commenting on behalf of the real djing community? Man you're really going to have to stop it with these comments.

    I think the F1 seems like good value even if the software licence wasn't included, even if it cost more to be honest. I just cant wait to get my hands on one, to fit into my work flow.

    What im basing this valuation on is the fact that im the head PC technician for just on 10 years at whats probably the largest independently run music store in Australia. Ive configured at least a thousand of systems small to very big. Ive seen every piece software and hardware thats mattered during this time, Ive seen every type of licencing in this time too. Ive seen many included software bundles, we call them free software, to us, thats all they are, a bonus.

    In terms of performance im a DJ if played over 10 years, I've supported touring acts in Australia such as Infected Mushroom, X-Dream, Shpongle, DAVE the Drummer, Astral Projection, Juno Reactor and heaps more.

    I say that they are on a winner with pricing with respect to both consumer and their own bottom line when compared to a sea of other products that im very familiar with. Please don't tell me what I should think, you're not qualified to do so.

    OK?