Will there be a hardware-only version or not?

Discussion in 'KONTROL F1' started by popoff44, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

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    Great post and good read,

    I get the feeling that scamo is probably a teenage student, and that is why he is kicking off about the price.

    Some of his views are just plain bizarre. He still hasn't asked my question about how long he has been djing. To me he sounds like he is fresh out of the digital controller generation, and he has the cheek to be slapping down wannabe kids? and he claims he is speaking for the real DJ Community

    Wonder if he has even touched to TT's and a mixer.




     
  2. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    I'll just ignore that. I didn't get personal with you. I think you should give me the same respect.

    Well. I think your comparison holds no water. If NI were doing what Apple does by keeping everything proprietary, then you wouldn't see this.

    http://co.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=traktorready

    Or do you see a "OSX ready" seal on Apple's competitor's products?

    Do you mean this question?

    This didn't make sense to me, so I ignored it. If you care to express your question better, I'll gladly answer it. Like how is the kid, the wannabe DJ, going to flood the market? You obviously didn't understand my point. It is the current Traktor owners who will flood the market, when they try to get rid of the licenses they don't need. Maybe there won't be a flood, since the residual value of the license is practically zilch. I guess NI is trying to combat Serato's free offerings.


    My point has nothing to do with Steve Jobs'.

    Steve also said....

    "You‘ve got to start with the customer experience and work back toward the technology - not the other way around."

    If NI had of thought about the current customer experience with this marketing change, then they might have done it differently.

    I don't need to argue about this at all anymore either. I've said my peace. NI probably won't change anything either and I can accept that too. Like I said. I'll probably be buying two F1s and selling the two licenses on Ebay. Viva la Traktor!

    scamo
    ---
    OK!

    My reference to the video was an attempt to lighten up the discussion. Yes it is silly, but it does help make my point. NI is trying to make Traktor more "reachable" for more people. In my opinion, the only way you make things more reachable is by simply making quality products. You don't have to lower prices of give anything away for free. And actually, I think NI is selling itself short with this and I really feel it will hurt the DJ community and NI in the long run. We will see who is right.

    I can't speak for the DJ world and I wasn't intending to. What I am trying to say is I don't think lower prices and "free" software is what the professional DJ world needs. Apple isn't cheaper than the rest of the PC, tablet or mobile phone world. On the contrary, they are more expensive. Funny though, they are more wide spread.

    Good quality deserves a higher price.

    Oh well. Love it or lump it. I guess I'll lump it this time. End of discussion.

    scamo
     
  3. dannybyrne29

    dannybyrne29 NI Product Owner

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    2,342
    That was fun was'nt it...
    one big happy traktor using DJ family...

    Anyway does that mean there will be a hardware only one or not...?.... he he (joke)
     
  4. lattridge

    lattridge Forum Member

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    23
    DJTT take on the future of traktor, not mine.

    "Native Instruments announced this morning a consolidation of their Traktor product line, centered around the new 2.5 release which contains the new “Remix Decks”. They’ve simplified the DJ offerings and finally offered precise details on when we can expect to see Traktor Pro 2.5 and the Kontrol F1 controller.

    We asked NI what makes today’s announcement important:

    “This “remix” significantly simplifies the Traktor product range and makes it more affordable for DJs to get into Traktor at a low price point. The big news is that any Traktor hardware now ships with a full version of Traktor Pro 2. With the Audio 2, for instance, customers can now get a full professional DJ package for under $120.”

    Makes sense – keep your software affordable and focus on selling hardware is a strategy that worked very well for a certain computer company that recently became the biggest company in the world. But what exactly has changed? Read on for the full details.

    SOFTWARE CHANGES



    Traktor Duo got the axe -*Only Pro from now on out!*Duo 2 and Duo 2 Scratch users get a free upgrade today to Pro 2.
    Cheap upgrades -*Customers who own Traktor Pro 1 (or older!) can upgrade to Traktor 2.5 for $44.50 until April 30th. Own Traktor LE? The same upgrade is $89.
    Traktor Pro 2 is cheaper,*digital download! -*Traktor Pro 2 will be available only as a Digital Download for the significantly cheaper price of $89.
    2.5 is free!*Version 2.5 will be available at the end of May as a free update to all owners of Traktor 2 Pro and Duo.
    Hardware + Software Combo: *Traktor Pro 2.5 will be*included*with all NI hardware for free from here on out.
    BPM DETECTION UPGRADE

    We’re also interested to see a rewrite of Traktor’s beat/tempo detection engine will be coming in 2.5, with a number of new behaviors and features that many have been asking for.

    Rewritten tempo detection for improved accuracy, developed from*analyzing*thousands of tracks from various genres
    New “downbeat” auto-detection improves auto-beat-gridding and phase recognition
    Convenient analysis options when importing files to your collection – set the tempo range by BPM
    Much improved BPM detection on tracks with variable tempo, (such as “live” drummer genres) – now detects average BPM
    Rewritten Tempo-Tap – instant and simple realignment anytime your tracks drifts away from the grid over time
    Manually adjusted grids, (and all BPM-locked tracks) keep their position and tempo from previous versions
    HARDWARE CHANGES



    The Audio 2 will include a free copy of Traktor Pro 2 for only $119 (Available Now).
    The Audio 6 and Audio 10 will no longer be sold as stand alone sound cards.
    The Audio 6 and Audio 10 will only be sold as packages – complete Traktor Scratch systems with DVS control vinyl and Traktor Pro 2. For example, the Traktor Scratch A6 package will run $339.
    SIMPLIFYING*YOUR CHOICES


    NI is basically condensing their product line into two groups of DJ experience, controllers or*vinyl*control. You can buy the software on its own but most people will probably go with the following packages:

    *Traktor Pro included with the hardware controllers (S2, S4, X1,F1,) and the Audio 2.
    *Traktor Scratch Pro included with the DVS control vinyl systems (A6, A10)
    As we hinted at above, this continues the slow march towards a closed system model favored by Apple, with full hardware and software integration where all of the customer*experience*is created by a single company. On one hand this can create a great customer*experience*with plug and play simplicity, but it also has the opportunity to limit creative third party development.

    OUR TAKE

    This is a good step in the right direction. The Traktor line had become increasingly confusing, and these consolidations make everything fairly simple to understand. The classic line “Keep it simple, stupid” comes to mind.

    Additionally, the new Audio 2 package deal with Traktor Pro 2 for only $119 means that DJs who buy non-NI controllers have a reasonably-priced route to getting an audio card and professional mixing software. It’s also a relief that everyone will get the 2.5/Remix deck release for free, but we’re anxious to see if they really work as advertised, considering that the current sample decks can be less than reliable in the sync department.

    Categories: News, Traktor Kontrol F1
    Tags: audio 2, audio 6, Audio 8, DVS, remix decks, Traktor Duo, traktor pro 2, traktor pro 2.5, Traktor Scratch Pro"
    ---
    So scamo, still think my comparison holds no water?
     
  5. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    321
    If they stop letting third parties promote "Traktor Ready", then you and DJTT might be right. I think doing this would be another major mistake too. NI is good, but their quality just isn't Apple like. So the comparison falls short considerably again. Apple's proprietary business model is good for Apple and was made successful by Steve Jobs'' visionary leadership. I highly doubt NI will be able to accomplish the same business model as successfully, because their market just isn't the whole world, as Apple's is. NI can't create a paradigm change for the whole world. It can for the DJ world, or at least they are trying. But still, NI's market is niche. The business model NI must follow will have to be some sort of a hybrid of some kind. Yes, sell software with the hardware, if it can be standalone. That is smart and I don't have any issue with this change. What I don't want is them asking me to buy the hardware with the software, if I don't need it. That simple choice needs to be there for me too. And it should be there, because NI's best market, especially for the F1, is their own current customers. That is why this thread was started.

    A lot of NI customers may love the F1 and buy it with the license and not be worried.

    A lot may feel they are buying more than they need with the F1, so the satisfaction level drops. I fit this group.

    Some will not care either way.

    The F1 (and especially the S1) is (are) going to be a peripheral piece of equipment in I'd say 90 -95% of it's (their) use cases. That means the owners are going to have mixers or controllers that already work with Traktor AND they will already have the Traktor software. And now, with the purchase of one or two F1s, they'll have one or two more pretty much useless Traktor licenses sitting around. (Don't forget, you can install and use Traktor legally on two computers too. Hmm... I wonder if NI is going to change that rule.)

    If I were NI, the last thing I'd want to do is make my software useless for anyone in any shape or form. And that is where the comparison to Apple falls short again and my personal gripe. I don't think there is a fairly large user base of Apple owners out there that have OSX licenses sitting around not being used. Is there?

    scamo
     
  6. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    26,765
    nope! i only wanted to point out that the making still costs the same, but the revenue NI makes is generated differently. and obviously this model is similar to apple. in times of widely spread software piracy, software is de-valued and it made totally sense changing towards this model.
     
  7. gNNY

    gNNY NI Product Owner

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    79
    previously, I was confused as well about the pricing and inclusion of the full version of Traktor Pro 2 with the F1.

    But that was pre-new price model. Now it's a different ball game and so for me the discussion ends right here. To me it doesn't matter anymore that a full version of Traktor is coming with the F1. A "hardware only" option is irrelevant under the new condition to me. NI made a price point choice that they won't change and it doesn't matter to me anymore. I'll take my free copy of version 2.5 and will leave it at that.
     
  8. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    321
    Yep, that is what I am going to have to do to. I just wish I could have been happier about buying two F1s.

    scamo
     
  9. Scaper7

    Scaper7 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    707
    I agree ... that's the perception I get too. No recognition of the software costs already laid out by existing customers. Now completely devalued and worth nothing.

    Other companies I deal with seriously know how to look after their customers. Not NI.

    As a result I intentionally make sure to spend the absolute minimum amount possible with NI.
     
  10. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

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    468
    i love this thread..... i purchase and use traktor cause of what it does for me and djing. I guess there is a different perspective. packaging and what comes in the box does not devalue the product at all
     
  11. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    321
    You're right. Packaging and what comes in a box doesn't devalue a product in a direct sense. Adding the software to every hardware product you have "for free" AND lowering the cost of the software by a large amount does incredibly devalue the software though.

    scamo
     
  12. gNNY

    gNNY NI Product Owner

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    79
    However, this price change is not unheard of in the Software industry. Back in the days when OpenOffice was Star Office I bought a license directly from the developer. A few weeks later it was announced that Star Office will be turned into a free and open source software.

    NI is changing their business model, it seems, and that's just it. Let's hope they're not doing it because they are close to being bankrupt ... ;)
     
  13. jbfuller

    jbfuller NI Product Owner

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    177
    "Adding the software to every hardware product you have "for free" AND lowering the cost of the software by a large amount does incredibly devalue the software though."

    Welcome to 1989 buddy, this has been happening for a long time.
     
  14. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

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    26,765
    lol, a definite "no" to that. they're good :)
     
  15. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    321
    Um, am I supposed to understand this comment? Because, if I am, I don't.

    scamo
     
  16. jbfuller

    jbfuller NI Product Owner

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    Why iz I not surprised?
     
  17. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

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    468
    actually it increases the user bank and in my opinion the raises the value :) .... but like i said be fore i am not all that concerned about picking apart the price. the cost of the F1 is fair to me for the controller. i own traktor scratch pro and an audio 6 and purchased the djm-t1 yeah those all came with disk. i never opened and couldnt tell you where they are to this day and traktor is still my choice software solution.
     
  18. scamo

    scamo Administrator Staff Member

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    321
    Sorry, but this puts me on the other side of the fence I was riding about buying two F1s. This has to be the worst decision of them all.

    http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1026933&postcount=4

    Sorry NI, BIG BIG disappointment here! This tells me you don't even get the real strengths of your own software. I understand the thinking behind the decision. Sell more F1s! But, there also needs to be a much, much better technical explanation, before I can believe the functions of the Mix Decks can't be controlled over normal midi and I don't mean the multi-colored LEDs either.

    Edit/- So you all who were saying "NI is now trying to be more like Apple!" I'll have to agree with you now. But, NI is still not doing it right and can't. Traktor is the core of NI's DJ business, not the hardware around it. The software IS the platform and now NI is closing it down, so only its own "Apps", the hardware, will work with it. If this should continue to get even more acute, it will be the beginning of the end. Think of Apple trying to close down all its "apps" and try to produce all of them themselves. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

    scamo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2012
  19. H3PO4

    H3PO4 NI Product Owner

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    36
    The more they unfold their plans, the more I get it that they aren't coming out with a hardware-only version. They're looking at the hardware-software integration market, rather than a hardware market or a software market.
    However, I still think that it would be a good idea for them to
    1) Make Maschine truly compatible (not going into that on this thread because there is one for that already)
    2) Give current Traktor Pro licensees a voucher if they buy the F1

    I think they would have to be crazy to not have plans for sample and loop packages to be sold in the future, so I'm assuming that they will. People could use the vouchers for expansion packs for whatever NI application they want. I would be a polite nod of appreciation to loyal customers and not just the people who bitch the most.
    On the subject of bitching, I want to point something out to a number of you who've had comments on this thread that were worth jack and ****...
    Bitching without providing any constructive ideas is worthless.
    Telling people that things just are how they are and you can't change them is also worthless.
    NI doesn't just have this forum for their collective health. It helps them serve their customers and do what they're in business to do, which is to make money. They are not some huge corporation like Microsoft that can succeed by telling customers what they want, rather than listening to them. If you don't believe that they have people within their organization reading this forum to help them make business decisions, you're either a fool or a cynical person who think that NI is run by a bunch of fools. I suppose both situations are possible, but my common sense tells me that they got where they are by not being fools.
    Thank you and have a nice evening.
     
  20. kraal

    kraal NI Product Owner

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    heres whats funny...if ni would raise the price of the f1 controller to 300.00 and the sell it for 249 without the software people would be happy. point is what you get you have to ask yourself are you willing to pay the price for it. if not fine.