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Win 7, 8 or 10

Discussion in 'Computer Technology and Setup' started by jg::, Feb 16, 2016.

  1. jg::

    jg:: NI Product Owner

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    34
    I know Komplete Ultimate will run on 7, 8, or 10. But what is it best on? Any thoughts before I upgrade my current Win 7 Pro system? How is Win10 behaving in general our there?
     
  2. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

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    754
    My Windows 7 ran very well. You can keep it. But it's the next Windows OS not to be supported.

    I have updated to windows 10 from windows 7. (Never wanted windows 8.)
    After some small issues Windows 10 is now running well with all my stuff. I think it will be at least as stable as windows 7.
    I don't think windows 8 ever have been too good.
    I think you can update to windows 10. Somethings is faster than windows 7. Shut down all things you don't need. But be sure your applications can run on windows 10 if you update. Minor issues with applications could be the coarse of some minor issues i've had. But many things has been updated and fixed by now.

    That's my input.
     
  3. solger

    solger NI Product Owner

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    3,773
    I did the upgrade on a new computer from (an almost clean install of) Windows 8.1 Pro (64-bit) to Windows 10 Pro (64-bit) and there are no problems so far. My old system is still running (and will stay) on Windows 7 Pro 64-bit.

    In general I would say either Windows 7 or Windows 10. But the main question is probably if there are any major benefits for you in upgrading to Windows 10 if the current Windows 7 is running without problems. Otherwise why not stick with Windows 7 (never change a running system ;))?

    Some hints in general if you decide to upgrade:
    • Make a backup, system image, etc. of your important files, just in case.
    • Check if your software, plugins, external hardware (drivers), etc. is compatible with Windows 10.
    • As with every new operating system, consider some time for adjusting Windows 10 settings, services, apps, etc.
    • There should also be an option to roll back to Windows 7 (within a month) in case you encounter any major problems with the Windows 10 upgrade: http://www.howtogeek.com/220723/how...grade-to-windows-7-or-8.1/?PageSpeed=noscript
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  4. jg::

    jg:: NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    34
    Thanks for that. I should have been clearer - I'm getting a new computer built for me, so it will be a fresh install of the op sys and all software. Looking forward to running Komplete for the first time! So the old Win7Pro system will remain as a backup.
    So the more refined question is....
    Would you go for Win10 on a new music/audio system?
     
  5. solger

    solger NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    3,773
    OK, that's pretty much the same as it was in my case: New system (last year) with Windows 10. Old (backup) system with Windows 7.
    So yes, I would recommend to go with Windows 10 on a new computer in general.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  6. jg::

    jg:: NI Product Owner

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    34
  7. UltimateOutsider

    UltimateOutsider NI Product Owner

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    593
    Completely false. Windows 7 still represents nearly half of all computers in the world and is still actively supported by Microsoft, receiving security updates every week. And there isn't any malware that says, "Oh, this is a WIndows 8 computer? I'd better leave this one alone!" Malware targets Windows (any version it can run on) because most computers run Windows. (Your post is so inaccurate that I'm half convinced you were joking, though, so forgive me if that's what you were trying to do.)

    I still haven't seen any DAW benchmarks comparing Windows 10 to Win 8 or Win 7. Those WDM tests people were talking about around Windows 10's release had literally nothing to do with pro audio (and Microsoft wasn't even trying to pretend they did, but a lot of users misinterpreted what it meant.) Windows 8 was only ever as-good-as or slightly-worse-than Windows 7 in terms of pro audio performance. Jury's still out on Windows 10 as far as I know... but I haven't seen any red flags yet either, so long as your stuff still runs on it, you're probably okay with Win 10.
     
  8. dazeja

    dazeja NI Product Owner

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    108
    Unlike most people, I love windows 10. My old dell actually is more stable with it and N.I. software works the same as it did with windows 7. But make sure everything you use and do with your computer supports Windows 10. I work from home and none of the companies I work for support computers with Windows 10.
     
  9. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    754
    I can confirm this.
    I guess i misinterpreted words where windows 10 was said to have improoved audio performance - best ever. I exspected more for my audio applications from Windows 10. And the jury is still out. But overall i don't think Windows 10 is worse than windows 7 on this point either. But there is not the big audio performance improovement i had exspected. Windows 10 is new. Perhaps the performance will get even better in this area too. Time will tell.

    Some reliable tests for pro audio/ music production performance would be nice to see.

    Else i stick to my first post. That apply no matter it's a update or a new PC.
     
  10. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    754
    I'm not a technician. I really don't know much about this.
    As i have understood, then very few are actuslly using pure ASIO drivers.
    The drivers most of us are using are somehow WDM drivers no matter the word ASIO is used. Is'nt that so?
    I really don't know. Perhaps somebody can explain this short and clear?

    The text below is taken from this website:
    http://www.staudio.de/kb/english/drivers/

    "WDM Kernel Streaming

    WDM also introduces another way to access the audiocard hardware, this method is called WDM Kernel Streaming (WDM KS). It makes use of the same strucuture every real WDM driver has to use the KMixer but bypasses the KMixer. This is done without the usage of the regular MME, DirectSound or even ASIO APIs - the driver's kernel module is accessed directly from the audio application. This method was first used by Cakewalk [3] in their SONAR software. By accessing the kernel module of the driver directly from the application without the usage of any high level API, very low latency figures can be achieved (similar to ASIO, depeding on the driver structure and hardware even lower than with ASIO). Other (but not all) software vendors are now working to support WDM KS inside their future audio applications."

    This is how i understand it. Is the article giving false informations?
     
  11. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

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    754
    Thanks for your respons ImNoDJ.

    Are you saying we are using the same kind of ASIO drivers as in professionel Studio's and coded in the same code level?

    I know ASIO4ALL is a wrapper. But it's still called ASIO and i guess it do use windows like ASIO, and that way you can get a performance improovement using it for for instance your internal soundcard. I would say many ASIO drivers in a way can do the same but in a designed way for a dedicated driver for a specific soundcard, even if they also are called ASIO. They are kind of ASIO but not pure ASIO except in the understanding Audio Stream Input/Output and thus perhaps supported as such by windows or something like that. I don't know.

    Where do the performance of windows give meaning for audio production like ours? I'm thinking about the debate if one operating system or another perform better for audio/ music production. Windows 7 was considered to be the first really good windows system for this, while windows 8 is considered to do worse than windows 7. Why the talk about this? How can one system be better than the other for our audio/ music production?

    I would think windows somehow shall support the different kind of drivers or code.
    What's the difference in how windows support WDM and ASIO seen in the light of the operating system debate? Especially if an improovement for WDM don't matter for us.
    What would have to be done in Windows to improove performance for audio/ music production like ours?

    And are there differences in how professionel ASIO drivers, the none professionel ASIO drivers and ASIO wrappers like ASIO4all are using windows? If so - what are the differences?

    I still don't think i know anything for sure about this topics. Not enough. I still don't understand.

    Everyone is welcome to respond/ answer this.
     
  12. D-J-K

    D-J-K NI Product Owner

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    1,293
    Interesting conversation here. I'm staying on a 8.1 right now because of things I've heard (and seen on my wife's laptop) with 10. I've heard that 10 has built in spyware that allows Microsoft to track and report back virtually everything you do, and modifying security/user preferences does not actually deactivate them. Is this kind of stuff true ? My wife's Toshiba laptop has done some creepy stuff since she got 10 --- it'll randomly play mp3s for 1-2 seconds, open up random Wikipedia pages, and randomly deactivates the touchpad and volume controls. I know some of this stuff could be Toshiba issues, but still, its enough that I'm staying away from Windows 10 as long as I have too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
  13. laszlozoltan

    laszlozoltan NI Product Owner

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    73
    sounds to me like folks are just using up limited activations just to experience a gee-whizz W10 OS, while really they should be producing stuff with what they got. If your PC is crapped out and done, then of course you don't have much choice, but if everything is working as it should, then what is the point of W10 ?
     
  14. jg::

    jg:: NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    34
    laszlozoltan, it's an important question for me, because I'm getting a new system dedicated to music. I'm not upgrading my old one.
    I can now report that my local Audio-PC guru has advised that my new system is configured with Win7pro, mainly because of the auto-update "features" of Win10, which cannot be disabled at the moment. These updates can also include all manner of drivers and system settings, with the potential to disrupt a carefully-calibrated audio-only system. He also reported the so-called Microsoft "spyware" issue reported above, though I'm less concerned about this.
     
  15. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    754
    Found this on a quick search on the web beside UltimateOutsiders blog. It's inputs.
    http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/what-will-windows-10-mean-for-musicians-629392
    http://pcaudiolabs.com/windows-10-for-pro-audio/
    http://www.studio-one.expert/studio-one-blog//should-you-upgrade-your-studio-pc-to-windows-10

    I think perhaps audio drivers will be developed to use windows 10's improovements better.

    About windows 10 should reset settings:
    That's not my experience after windows 10 has been updated. It's like windows 7. Perhaps it can happen, but could'nt it in other operating systems?

    About windows 10 updates:
    Even on windows 7 you had to do updates, that you really did'nt know what was doing more than you know about windows 10.
    You could stop updates. But it has never been recommended not to update as it's also about security matters and some positive things like bugfixing and optimizing.

    About windows 10 issues on laptop:
    I can tell i have had some issues with missing icons on my laptop but not on my main desktop PC.

    I think perhaps updating to windows 10 on a factory configurated laptop that has been preconfigured with another operating system and the manufactures stuff can give some issues. But i have'nt heard of anything where it caused by windows 10 openend files and media player randomly before. But things like this can happend for instance when using apps you have giving permissions like you do when/ if you install them or if your PC are infected.

    You can turn some functions on and off in windows 10. For instance not to allow sharing informations between your apps.

    About windows 10 spy on you:
    Big Brother is a scandal topic of it's own. Spying is everywhere. Don't believe not using windows 10 will keep you out off it. Your are probably in it over your head allready without using windows 10. One can just wonder why it's allowed and why so few speak up against it.
    George Orwells 1984 is nothing compared to what has been going on for at least two decades. Today it's worse than ever. But now people are actually giving permission for it when they use services and apps etc... People are somehow forced to do so to live in the society. It's a scandal.
    Also people don't read the terms and conditions. They just press "I agree" or "OK" etc.. Many don't know they give permission including to their personal data etc. is being overviewed and even traded without you get any pay. People even give permission for simple apps like a flash light app on there very smart phones to let them read personal messages and to use the camera and mic at any time etc without further warning - also when you sleep, and that even if the app don't need it to work. It's just to spy on you and for trading sake.
    But spyware is a major topic in so many things. It's a huge scandal. But if you get more spyed on using windows 10 is another matter. Microsoft compete with so many others doing this including so called social media, webservices including mail services, music/tv/film services and search machines, apps, GPS etc....
    It's not fair only to blame Microsoft. Just thought we should get this into perspective in the context of the reality we live in. Not to argue about it.
     
  16. laszlozoltan

    laszlozoltan NI Product Owner

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    sorry, you don't have to do updates with w7. but if you do, it seems you wind up updating to auto load w10, and nag ware. it goes without saying there is a certain risk associated- but much of that depends on what you choose to do, beyond that I will say this is not really the place to discuss that.
    a serious dedicated music pc/ mac will minimize risk by limiting internet connectivity, and data sources (eg. infected flash devices).
    hardware is moving away from w7 driver compatibility- so there is a tech crunch to consider.
    personally, I am holding out to bridge the gap for whatever the future may bring- I like what I have, because it works.
     
  17. LBH

    LBH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    754
    @laszlozoltan

    You can disable the W10 upgrade and still get updates for your windows version, and that's recommended. I don't say you have to upgrade to W10 to get updates for your windows version.

    There is a difference between updating and upgrading.
     
  18. paulwesterman

    paulwesterman New Member

    Messages:
    2
    7, 8/8.1 and 10 are all very solid and reliable for DAWs and music applications (and anything else really). I'm on 10 because I've just put a new PC together. It's fine, works great. It's a matter of personal choice; I find 10 is very like 7. I didn't like the crazy start screen in 8 so I installed Classic Shell. You can switch off automatic updating in 10 and much of the data gathered is for services like Cortana and Wifi Sense and almost all of this can be turned off too. I think a lot of the mistrust arose from news about the telemetry gathered during the Technical Preview/Insider Program. That version did send back a lot of (anonymised) telemetry about how the system was used, which resulted in the hybrid start menu we now have in 10.
     
  19. laszlozoltan

    laszlozoltan NI Product Owner

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    73
    I don't believe the telemetry reporting by w10 is insidious spying on the part of M$; but I gather they have a greater control over the OS on your system, which is a selling point by them to other customers where certain licensing issues may be involved. W10 and M$ may be as benign and altruistic as anyone on the planet, today; but that can change literally in a heartbeat and then you are going to have a lot of upset folks. Auto installs of drivers and upgrades can render a working system useless. Error 53 (Apple). Bread and butter for many; and a lot of wasted time troubleshooting etc. Rarely does an update work miracles as in "my system is sooooo much better than before", usually it's just to fix something that a previous update broke. So the reward vs the risk seems to me to outweigh the reward. Im happy for anyone regardless of their OS to be happy with theirs. I have no investment, no gain with any of the providers out there- and if I am to be accused of being a fanboi, let it be for freedom of choice of the user by the user for the user.
    Thx
     
  20. jg::

    jg:: NI Product Owner

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    34
    Then I'm not sure why some people are saying that you can't switch if off. Can you explain exactly how to switch it off, please?