Xone:DB4

You wont like what you read runningoutofspace...hid is not good. I my CDJs not long ago and have been using rekordbox instead of traktor. Although I've also dipped into traktor on the db4 with mixarkitects tsi!

I will be interested to see if hid issues are resolved now ni appear to be partnering with pioneer. The only reason why maybe not is that you wouldn't need an ni soundcard anymore. Prob why they've certified the 900 instead as they'll get a cut that way I presume?

 

The negative tinge of the DB4 conspiracy theory may be believable but I just don't think we need to look at Pioneer this way. Really two separate issues exist for NI for two major products that can't fully use their software.

If Pioneer was in cahoots with NI then they should have fixed Advanced HID because the feature doesn't exist and can't be advertised to those who are interested but want it to work with Traktor. Keeping it an unusable state allows them both to keep their products separate because, if you can't tell, NI is rapidly going off into controllers for the rest of the world that doesn't want 'physical decks'. They are also still trying to sell sound cards to people for timecode? in an age when the mixers like DB4 and 900Nexus don't need another sound card and when Technics are not being used because of DVS and CDJs. The top two used in the industry - above software (Live, Maschine, etc.) and hardware in last place.

Sure, DB4 isn't certified but owners will have to find an alternative. Pioneer wins because for those who want hands 'decks' they will use either CDJs or 1200s. There are several approaches to the situation that make you say why bother thinking about Scratch? May'be we are looking at it all wrong...Traktor works great already with the DB4 and it really can be controlled smoothly with the DB4's midi control/Mix's tsi.

We may need to step back from Traktor for a minute and see that the DB4, out the box, is best set-up for everything except one thing - timecode control of Traktor. If the solution to that is the CDJs, YOU CAN still do midi control of Traktor with the TSI (barring an unknown (to me) sound card conflict issue, I believe all will work together on the DB4: 2-4 CDJs, Laptop and definitely 1200s).

Alfonse can you confirm this?

I've realized that I don't need Scratch anymore. I will get by on the CDJs and vinyl....converted to most likely 24bit/48kHz format Wavs and move on. If it's possible, I may use the midi control as well but may'be not all together because the CDJs should be enough.

If Advanced HID and Scratch get worked out...great...I'll adapt. For now, the CDJs, as is, seem to be the best 'hands on' alternative to Traktor and the solution to not having Advanced HID for CDJs and Scratch capability with my DB4...both issues with Traktor.

-MoMo

 

It may not seem like much to people who like playing on CDJs, but for me this one is a big deal --and I don't even use timecode all that much. But when I first moved to digital DJing this was the exact reason - to be able to control sounds like vinyl that I didn't actually have on vinyl.

I was fortunate enough to be able to play with a db4 for about an hour the other day and I was definitely feeling it. They just had it hooked to a single source via USB but what it could do just with that was a blast. A couple things seemed odd to me; looping control was shorter than what I expected (4 bar max), the fx buttons were already suffering cosmetic damage on a brand new unit; and you have to be careful with the eq section as if you switch modes the previous mode jumps back to neutral (makes sense if you think about it but it surprised me). The headphone jack is in a dumb place, almost as bad as my behringer. (why did companies stop putting them on the front side of the mixer anyway?)

But those are minor issues; the mixer was really fantastic. The eq control you have with the iso and filter options is ridiculous. And you have filter controls on the side like other a+h mixers. And the effects are really really tasty. And they could probably improve the looping controls with a firmware update. What really blows me away with this mixer is what it can do with regular vinyl. But the timecode issue has me wondering if I should be looking at much cheaper and still excellent mixers like the ecler evo5, the mackie d4pro, and the denon x1700 instead.

That said, I do have an old CDJ-1000 that I never use, might have to pull that out and see if it still works.

 

The looping controls are more accurate with Mix's tsi file so don't worry...that's the one that makes it shine and it's highly likely that the one you demo'd only had some basic controls mapped.

And yes... the DB4 can do wonders with vinyl and other analog sources simply because it allows more shaping and looping of things that aren't midi or digitally controlled.

It's not an exactly bad using the DB4 for Traktor, it's great but it simply requires lots of preparation and navigation, skills IMO, I need to smooth out a bit. The Maschine shined with features like "CUP" and direct looping control on the pads you could beat to death..but the DB4 requires more preparation for precision execution. If I bought no CDJs, I would not have 'hands on' control of my tracks and the one thing that could kill the need for CDJs would be Scratch cert. I am still considering going ahead with the purchase but may'be I need to work on something else..the expansive looping and cue points options in Traktor are, IMO, better but currently without the 'hands on' capability I require.

I really liked the first Maschine mapping that DJ Endo did (with both decks on one 4x4 pad lay-out) I lost it by mistake wipe-out and got by with the current version. if anyone still has that one I'm in need.

 

the looping functions on the cdj2000's are pretty immense momo.

you have a manual, quantised in/out mode
you have a dedicated auto 4 bar/8 bar quantised loop button
you have 3 hot cue's per track which can be set as loops instead
you have an additional 10 memory points per track which can be called up and can be either a cue or a loop.
you also have an additional quantised loop section with the latest firmware which lets you chop any loop from 1/8 bar to 64 bars on the fly, all quantised.

i don't think there's anything on the market (software or hardware) that competes with this combination of options & tactile, intuitive operation.

couple this with your 4 channels of loopers / input matrix on your db4 and you've got some serious sound mangling ability on your hands from just 2 cdj decks that is quick & easy to operate with dedicated buttons.

 

Great info...I'm slow to learning this one because I'm just adopting.

I only use three hot cues max in traktor so it's no issue and I'm glad there's more looping capabilities so ignore my ignorance.

Thanks.

-------------------
On another note...I've had another go with Mix's DB4 tsi +DJ Endo's tsi also on Maschine. I had no issues using the two with Traktor and think the Maschine brought back some level of comfort in this "no control deck" set set-up. I flowed just as normal but really don't want a controller...I'd rather have some sort of deck to jog the tracks and not be dependent upon software and sound cards so CDJs with normal features and some level of HID still seems ideal. I won't go on and on about this but the information provided in response to my questions helped me.
I'll close my comments with "good luck". We have several options outside of Scratch such as CDJs, straight midi-control, other programs, hardware and all vinyl.

I'm going off to work with what I have and need.

 

I've got two quick questions for other DB4 owners:
What setting are you using for Traktor's main output level. I have to adjust to -14 to keep the channel levels in the green and to avoid Peak from happening with any EQ or ISO changes above 0db and....

WTF is up with the mix recording. One deck is available as the input for a mix? I have no clue as to why this would make sense and was only trying to use this because I wanted to check the quality but the one deck won't work for a "mix" and nothing is going to the recorder (is this because it's at -14db or by the I/O routing required to use the DB4 as the sound card?)

What did I miss?

Remember.....I'm using Mix's tsi which reuquires CADB to 1234.

 

i run the master from traktor at -6db, but adjust my input trim on the db4 as needed, averaging 0db on the channel meter, with peaks at +3. i only use the dual filter eq mode, so most of what i'm doing is subtractive, unless i've got the resonance maxed for the frequency zoom... obviously distortion and bit bash will give you an ocean of gain.

the mixer has an incredible amount of headroom, so you can hammer the piss out of it and not be clipping anything. the important thing is to be pro-active with the input gains and adjust the channel faders as needed. there's no one setting for an optimized gain structure - since the input source is always changing from track to track, and the density of frequencies is evolving with the music content. hands on is a must.

what's up with mix recording is most likely your usb routing on the db4 is setup to output a single deck and not the mix or record output.

go into menu, select usb routing, and then you'll see sends 1-4. press on fx time, and it will open up a menu that shows every part of the singal chain that you can send to the mix recorder. select mix or record, then exit. if you selected record, double check the record setup preferences that it's sending the mix. (gets a bit confusing but there is a lot of modularity to the routing on db4)

next go into traktor's preferences and you'll make adjustments in two places.

first in input routing. select an input and assign the soundcard channel send that you just assigned in the db4's usb routing menu. (if it was send 1, that would be db4 1-2)

next go to mix recorder - under source select external, and then under external input, select the input you just assigned in the input routing from the previous step.

you should be sorted.

here's another freaky trick that mr rigby jones hipped me to a while back - take an RCA lead and connect it from the recording output to an input channel. bring up the channel fader of what is receiving the record output, adjust the gain, and let the feedback loops begin.

especially cool when using long reverbs or delays on the feedback channel. plus you can assign the record send to output the cue so you can selectively feedback a channel you're monitoring on the cue bus.

and if you haven't gotten into millisecond mode delay, try it immediately! you can shift modes on any effect engine by holding the DLY button, then press fx time. you'll see the intervals changing in ms now, and you're no longer stuck on the grid.

 

wonder if anyone asked for the DB4's certification on the Traktor On the Record thread?

 

Thanks for the info on the levels and mix routing. I thought I had it covered until I encountered the one deck option and got confused. I will check it out.

And the record out to input trick should also add the ability to resample the post effected playback and "grab" looped segments on other channels too!

Great...it's now on fire.

(Passed it on)
http://www.residentadvisor.net/forum-read.aspx?id=119324&page=2

Thanks.
-MoMo

 

I've uploaded a CD quality mix to my SoundCloud account that was mixed in the studio, just few days ago with the DB4, Traktor Pro 2 and Maschine set-up I'm currently using. I'm not waiting around for Scratch Certification to materialize because it's highly likely that NI and Pioneer will fix the CDJs' Advanced HID issue first and that will allow me to physically do more with sound the way I'm heading, rather than with timecode that seems to be going in another direction. However, this set-up is working and the mix showcases the control and sound shaping I'm talking about - nothing else but using the ISO EQ option and filters (no extra effects applied or required for this mix). BTW, the mix was recorded internally into Traktor Pro 2 from the Mix output USB Send stream on the DB4 that also had the control and sound exchange going back and forth between my MacBook Pro and DB4's soundcard on one USB cable!


http://soundcloud.com/runningoutofspace/discoth-que-musique-dj-mix

 

back at ya. here's 5 months of mixes with DB4 using only the dual filter mode for eq and DB4 effects. lots of layers and matrix use, feedback loops and noise generation.

http://www.mixarchitekt.com/mp3/innerstructures/MixArchitekt_InnerStructures_January2011.mp3


http://www.mixarchitekt.com/mp3/innerstructures/MixArchitekt_InnerStructures_February2011.mp3


http://www.mixarchitekt.com/mp3/innerstructures/MixArchitekt_InnerStructures_March2011.mp3


http://www.mixarchitekt.com/mp3/innerstructures/MixArchitekt_InnerStructures_April2011.mp3


http://www.mixarchitekt.com/mp3/innerstructures/MixArchitekt_InnerStructures_May2011.mp3

 

I'm enjoying them...very smooth.

Yep, I'll explore more and get around to use it all..right where you are, but people just don't know until you show them.

Beyond the usuals, I've been using the Kill Sends feature to some great effect, but it was tough at first. There was a time when I was testing it on a song that wasn't registering in the bpm and oh man...run away horses. I would have ran away from it but I figured it out.

What's one of your favorite effects type and setting?

Reverse is mine.

 

dly - fat q in millisecond mode is the only delay i use. i love it, and it was my top request in development. the filter is very expressive and the mad regen chaos one creates in ms mode is where it's at.

rev - the plates are my favorites, followed by next door and the emt250s. they all reveal lots of interesting characteristics relative to decay time.

res - reverse and power are incredible. especially pulling the emphasis of the effect in and out of time with the expression knob's pre-delay, and shifting the focus by adjusting the filter.

mod - rotary x-over can yield interesting sounds with the right tracks. while i'm not usually a phaser/flanger fan, there are a lot of unexpected sounds with that group. again, the more you dig into the extremes of the parameters, the more it reveals.

dmg - distortion and bit bash! i like generating noise with bit bash on it's own so much i made a video about it. and then i use distortion with the dual filter mode eq to create super bass parts. i'll take a track, matrix it across 2 channels - one will have distortion maxed out, but then i'll use the dual filter eq to roll off the high's with the lpf, and then tune the bottom for thickness with the hpf and resonance. then you can pull the crazy bass in and out as needed.

 

Hey alfonse, how are you getting on with your new mixer?

 

Great stuff...will explore.
Thanks.

 

Completely agree! Why does ni "the future of djing" put such restrictions over getting that good old vinyl emulation feel without even more speniture ? Seems the only people targeted by not certifying this mixer are the guys at home. Starting to get the feeling ni are loosing their roots!

 

Originally posted from mixarchitekt: "here's another freaky trick that mr rigby jones hipped me to a while back - take an RCA lead and connect it from the recording output to an input channel. bring up the channel fader of what is receiving the record output, adjust the gain, and let the feedback loops begin. especially cool when using long reverbs or delays on the feedback channel. plus you can assign the record send to output the cue so you can selectively feedback a channel you're monitoring on the cue bus. and if you haven't gotten into millisecond mode delay, try it immediately! you can shift modes on any effect engine by holding the DLY button, then press fx time. you'll see the intervals changing in ms now, and you're no longer stuck on the grid."

My sound example of the signal re-loop matrix trick applied to some Disco Re-edit loops

Sampled loop runs recorded while finding the grooves and parts to expand upon off a re-recorded Disco track now being played back digitally in NI Traktor Pro 2, controlled by NI Maschine 1.6 and the A&H Xone: DB4 midi. Regular channel routing of the original signal then re-routing back-in and matrix selected onto other channels re-FX feeding into the record signal on two additional DB4 mixer channels. (The master out XLR on the DB4 mixer had it's analog signal re-introduced back into one mixer channel input pairs and then two other channels selected the channel's analog input signal via the DB4's matrix routing and those two channels received Resonator and Delay effects feeding the newly effected play back directly into the recording/output path). It's like when you put two mirrors next to each other and see the endless repeat image that continues on until it's out of sight. With the audio version of this trick, you raise the volume until audible re-FX are heard but not where harmful feedback occurs.

#1 is an out of sequence disco sample looped and ran with light application of the DB4 loop trick effecting it's signal. (you can really hear the second and tertiary effects being applied on the claps & finger snaps that make it more sonic and channeling a more dynamic picked out signal
within the loop run)

#2 is another part looped with heavy loop trick effecting it's signal until a generous (almost dangerous) amount of feedback occurs..and this is why the recording level is lower.

I'm now using this technique live during mix sets. However, I'm not using the cable connecting the record out for the loop trick because the record RCA out pair is now my analog Master output due to a fuzz at 0db fault issue occurring with the Master XLR output connection (basically it can't be silent but is fine at full volume). I decided to use the DB4's Master XLR out pair to feed back into the mixer with a custom XLR female pair to male RCA pair cable.I record on the USB soundcard into Traktor Pro 2 on the same laptop drive without any issues and the analog record out is free from interference - which connects to the FOH mix desk better. Additionally, the Master out XLR can be adjusted better while not interfering with the record output. Plus in this particular DB4 unit the Master out XLR connection only sounds clear at full volume because it suffers from signal fuzz issue at 0db. I don't really care about the signal fuzz issue because recording and play out is achieved and the Master XLR Out won't experience fuzz when used this way because the fuzz doesn't occur at all during full volume output (which is actually feeding the full volume mix audio back in during the loop trick). It would be an issue if I didn't have it figured out but all I need to record and play-out on is the Record output's analog RCA connection and digital recording via the USB. The monitor is not affected either and the fuzz at 0db on the Master XLR out is a fault with this particular unit which I could get fixed but have avoided by playing out at full volume back into the channels because it doesn't occur unless it's at 0db (sometimes) and...with the signal raging at full level feeding back into the channels..it'll never occur.

Once you get your head around that you'll realize there's music flowing in several directions being effected three times and all captured into one recording.

 

Third example added to the soundcloud page

Electric-razor-bumps

#3 is the best example of how you can really use a little bit of feedback to work for you (two individual "tricked" DB4 channels added to the main loop, one with a Ping Pong Delay and one with Reverse Resonator effects manipulated, ISO cut of the LF (bass) were applied + and raising and lowering frequencies until I could get enough soundFX...and Low Pass Filter was applied to the two tricked channels to add and keep the feedback at bay.)

#3 sounds fine and approaches danger but is kept under control and under 0db but it can become a too bit much at high volumes so beware because the feedback recorded is in near perfect example represented here - something for secondary FX to hold in check

 

my xone db4 just arrived today, and i try to set it up with my traktor scrath pro 2 + x1 but the problem is that booth decks A and B are in the same channel of the mixer, i cannot put the other channels to work in order does any one can help me?

like i try every imput but the only one that is working is one, and play all the decks in the same imput of the mixer ;S