Z2 Catalina Support

Discussion in 'KONTROL Z2' started by tricky_trev_Tf, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Anti-Skating

    Anti-Skating NI Product Owner

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    I agree, and NI could do a lot better in many way, but maybe due to premium marketing and paying a hefty premium for the MacOS ecosystem, users never blame Apple.

    Maybe people are new to DJing, and haven't learned the hard way:
    never update MacOS, unless you are absolutely, 100% guaranteed, that your software/hardware is supported!
     
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  2. chilly

    chilly Returning Customer

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    3,129
    I've been in the Mac ecosystem for over 15 years, and in my previous job I engineered and supported our entire Mac deployment, while being ACSP and hardware certified.

    The unfortunate part of this equation is if you purchase new Mac hardware, it typically comes preloaded with the latest OS, and more often than not you cannot downgrade to a previous version (thanks Apple!). This puts a lot of people in a predicament.

    I personally really want one of new late 2019 16" mbp's, but right now i'm scouring craigslist and fb marketplace for a mid-2015 15"...one of the last and most reliable macs released.
     
  3. Truke

    Truke New Member

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    has anyone tested ios 10.15.4 beta
     
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  4. MICROMAG

    MICROMAG New Member

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    Dear, NI!
    When you fix Traktor Kontrol Z2 at Catalina OS?
     
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  5. Sami de Sousa

    Sami de Sousa New Member

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    An update on this matter would be very much appreciated. Just a word if there's any hope to get the issue fixed, or should I just give up and trade the mixer and get something that works.
     
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  6. tricky_trev_Tf

    tricky_trev_Tf NI Product Owner

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    If NI would publish the complete in/out MIDI map of the Z2, it would make things much easier for this potential workaround in progress:

    We already know that the HID interface works ok in one direction only. If data travels in both directions, IOkit/HID eventually crashes. (HID uses the Traktor.Kontrol Z2 config in Traktor's Controller Manager - connecting to Apple's deprecated IOkit USB driver.

    But MIDI seems to work fine and stable so far with some basic input mappings.
    You can enable MIDI with the Z2 by having Controller Editor and Traktor open at the same time and setting the Traktor.Kontrol Z2 In/Out ports to "none". It would be nice to be able to turn only one off, but they are tied together.

    If any of you have a Z2 output map, that would be helpful.

    BUT: it seems the CUE MIX section on the mixer is disabled in MIDI mode (when the HID is disabled)... (who actually thought this was a great idea and programmed this into the Z2 @ NI.. why???? can we change the routing somehow like in a Focusrite 18i20 or Tascam or Yamaha, or etc..., where the routing stays non-volatile after the pc/mac is disconnected?).

    From the response from NI over the last 4 months, we know NI probably want us to ditch the Z2 and get another Scratch-Certified mixer or Controller if we want to use Catalina. So the question is: which Scratch-Certified mixers on the list also have the same bug? Or: why don't the others have the bug?
    (eg. the Pioneer DJM-900NXS2 and 900nexus use an intermediate driver)
    I would love to read the Z2 firmware...

    NI? (someone technical please...)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  7. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    I have been watching this thread for a while. Bought a new Z2 a few months back. Whilst I understand that NI warned people not update their OS I am still pretty appalled at their lack of communication and tone with which some advocates from the company have addressed users with. The correct response would be something like 'We are so so sorry this has happened, and not only are we working round the clock to fix this, we are also putting in place systems to make sure this doesn't happen again. We are extremely grateful to all our Z2 users and we will be updating you regularly with both progress and how we will work to improve in the future.'

    Instead, we've got users having to do the leg work and left wondering what the hell is going on with basically nothing from NI 'official' and plenty from the die-hard fans...none of it helpful. You can still buy the Z2 btw....
     
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  8. Karlos Santos

    Karlos Santos Rocket Man Moderator

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    I'm very sympathetic to your issue, I also use a Z2 every single week, it's the mixer I use for my wedding DJ business which is the mainstay of my financial income. I want to update my Macs but cannot, it's annoying.

    However, you mention that you have been following this thread so I don't know how you arrive at some of your points.

    NI have informed users at all stages and user should be aware that NI are working towards a fix. This has been explicitly stated many times on here by NI staff.
    I'm happy to look at any points where you think the response from anyone at, or connected to NI has been "appalling".

    This has been expressed numerous times.

    Please tell me how Native Instruments can prevent Apple from introducing a show-stopping bug into their operating system? This is literally out of NI's hands.
    The only system NI can put in place is to thoroughly test a new macOS and tell users not to update should there be any issues. This is literally what NI did in this case.

    This simply isn't how NI work. Please see the parts of my previous threads explaining that NI cannot reveal all their dealings with Apple. Progress is reported when it can be. I'm afraid with something like this, it's either fixed or not. NI have stated they are in constant communication with Apple on this matter.
    Maybe NI should post on this thread on a daily basis saying "Sorry guys, not fixed today". I'm not being glib, this is the only way they would avoid being accused of ignoring users.

    I'm not having a go at you - I'm simply addressing your points with what I consider to be balance replies.

    Karlos.
     
  9. tricky_trev_Tf

    tricky_trev_Tf NI Product Owner

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    Sure, Apple have changed something, but on the other hand, Apple have given NI full control by deprecating IOkit with Driverkit - months ago. Pioneer even use their own driver - for years. The Z2 depends on IOkit to function by design (at the moment until NI can give us a firmware update. Is that even possible? It is on a Pioneer!)

    Karlos, with all due respect, this thread already contains enough technical content about the URB_INTERRUPT (a specific USB data packet format, not audio) issue with no technical challenge or input by NI other than blaming Apple. If that's not the case, then NI can simply provide a statement of the specific issue from the IOkit logs in Xcode and explain why they can't build a driver kit extension (in a new Traktor release), or when it is expected to happen. All we ask is that the discussion is on the same level. The doubt and lack of faith in NI exists because there is no transparency.
    As far as reporting on progress officially, the November 21 post in the Z2 Compatibility with Catalina still refers to 10.15.0. 10.15.4 is in beta. Sloppy as 5h!t in keeping people officially up to date.

    Unlike others, I'm under no pressure to solve this. I have other macs, and other mixers. I'm a curious electrical engineer with a DJ hobby in Traktor/FinalScratch for the last 20 years (that was once upon a time more or less full time on the side!) - fighting hard for those who need to run Catalina for other reasons (eg. new mac), and have a Z2. The truth is out there :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  10. Anti-Skating

    Anti-Skating NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    44
    Probably more than anything, this persistent issue exposes some mess within the organisation. Seems as if there's no product owner/manager to take responsibility of some of the (older) hardware, and things are being sorted out on the side, with an emphasis on their kiddie/amateur app development, which unfortunately seems to be the top priority for NI.
    :(
     
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  11. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    407
    Karlos, with respect, what you have just done is entirely proved my point.

    Has anyone from NI engaged with the technical points raised by Tricky and others?

    Has there been any substantive initiative within NI to future-proof themselves against this happening again (obviously within reason - other manufactures have, as has been pointed out numerous times)? If so, what? If not, why not?

    Have NI said anything substantive on the issue within, say, the past month or so? It's been an issue since November. Sitting back and waiting for Apple to fix it simply isn't good enough. And because users are not given enough information to understand where the hold ups are etc we are getting increasingly frustrated. In fact, the first 'official' NI input into this thread was Sander in January, saying something about this not being an issue with Core Audio. This is not only not good enough, but illustrates how tone deaf NI are in terms of communicating with what are in many cases customers who have been with them from TFS etc.

    NI can - and should - be doing much better. And if they genuinely cannot fix this issue, then they need to pull the Z2 from sale until they are reasonably confident it has a future.
     
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  12. AceroneUK

    AceroneUK New Member

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    Hi all. Im genuinely disappointed that my first post here is a rant... but... here is a version of this story from a digital DJ noob. It seems ive learned the hard way and should have done a bit more homework before buying a Z2 so ill take responsibility for that, but all the same I am left feeling disappointed with NI as I am now essentially left with a heavy analog brick.

    Ive been DJing since about 1994, always had the same 1210s and never moved away from vinyl. My current mixer is on its way out so I was looking to replace it when I was offered a good deal on a Z2. It looked like the perfect solution - I could still use vinyl and also have access to digital mixing too - I was quite excited about what the Z2 would bring to my mixes. That is until I realised the Traktor Pro 3 software isn't incompatible with my new iMac running Catalina. When I found this thread dating back to Oct 2019 I was hopeful that by the end of it id find a solution to the problem, but after 4+ months it seems that there still isn't an answer or even a suggestion that it will be fixed any time soon.

    So after my initial buzz about moving into the world of digital DJing, im left feeling cheated with a practically useless bit of kit and no offer of a solution to fix it. I understand that my options now are: Dial back the OS on my iMac (not sure if that's possible as it was purchased in Dec 19 and came with Catalina installed - and it would be a pain in the arse...), source another laptop (an older iMac or a PC - but why should I have to do this? More expense for an extra piece of kit that I really should not need), or sell it on immediately and hope to find a PC user who wants a Z2 (Ill have to be upfront and honest with people about this issue too - i.e. 'this really isn't the mixer for you if are a Mac user and keep your OS up to date. Im no salesman but even I know that aint a great sales pitch...)

    Or wait and see what NI do to solve this? I would do this if it were imminent, but after 4+ months of not resolving it, I think it best not to hold my breath.

    This has been a really poor first impression of NI and their commitment to an excellent customer experience. The fact that the Z2 is still on sale and marketed as being Mac compatible is misleading and unacceptable as far as im concerned as it simply isn't the case - for me and many others here it seems too.

    An expensive and frustrating mistake on my behalf. A poor service and useless customer support from NI. What am I to do with my Z2?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  13. Benjamin Bykowski

    Benjamin Bykowski New Member

    Messages:
    4
    I've been watching this thread in the hope that some clarity would arise or a fix would be issued. Like Tricky, I am thankfully not under any pressure to solve this for myself, but as an engineer who has been using Traktor for years, I have held out hope that at least a patch or workaround would be provided by NI for those customers who are under pressure.

    I learned about this issue about an hour before I was about to go on back in October. I had to completely abandon using my Z2 and had to scramble to hook up my old Audio 8 (yes I still have one) and just use the on-screen Traktor interface so I could limp through. So I sympathize with anyone who has had to deal with this problem.

    I am thoroughly unconvinced that this is an issue that is unequivocally a "bug" with Catalina. I have yet to see a detailed technical explanation that this is the case. All I've heard from NI is that cryptically, "...the Z2 is class compliant," and that a Z2 was sent to Apple, ostensibly so Apple could "fix" the issue...

    The time and effort put forth by Tricky and others to specifically point out that IOkit was deprecated by Apple and replaced by Driverkit hasn't elicited a single response from NI. Why? I see replies from NI to posters on this thread claiming/asking if it is fixed but no-one has replied to any of the posts that have been made regarding the technical issue here.

    Many (most?) of us would not only understand and appreciate literally *any* details on the technical issue from NI's side, but many of us would also be more than happy to help determine a fix, patch or workaround if we were only given some insight here.

    While Apple makes macOS updates public, we are completely in the dark with Traktor's codebase. Why not open-source this so the community could participate in the resolution of issues like these? NI would be able to simply review PRs that are submitted by the community solving their problems and ours at the same time. How about NI? :D
     
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  14. Dav iiD

    Dav iiD New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Hello everyone and NI,

    i am also waiting to hear when they will fix the issue and have been watching this thread for some time now.
    Give us some official news, thanks
     
  15. anthony higginbotham

    anthony higginbotham New Member

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    Hi all
    I have also been watching and hoping for a fix since December totally frustrating :(
     
  16. mikewebb

    mikewebb New Member

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    This whole saga had upset me greatly but I just realised that it presented me with a great opportunity. My sons S4 died so he’s been using my Z2 with my D2s and loves them. He’s a Windows user and wants to by them. I’m thinking of going back to time code and deciding on a Xone mixer. Perfectly awesome.
     
  17. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    407
    Still laughing that NI think 'Bro chose between an up-to-date OS or using our product it's not hard' is an OK thing to ask users to do...
     
  18. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    Hey Everyone,

    Wanted to jump in on this one quickly on behalf of the support team.

    It's clear now that we should have done better to address this issue on our level as well and I apologize for the lack of communication. We will put an article in our knowledge base online possibly today or tomorrow so we can properly inform everybody of what is happening with the Z2 on 10.15.
    There seems to be multiple threads about this and I'm sure a lot of folks not visiting the forum would like to be updated. It will allow us to share whatever information about this topic more easily.

    We sincerely understand the situation is far from ideal and the Traktor team is doing the best they can to get this sorted with Apple. Unfortunately, we still don't have further news to communicate at the moment but we know that Apple is actively working on a fix and we have good hopes that this will be addressed at some point in the near future.

    I'm happy to answer questions about this (please keep in mind I wouldn't be able to go into details on the technical aspect).
     
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  19. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    407
    Thank you for your reply Matt. May I ask why you cannot go into technical details about this issue? I think, given that many of the people on this thread are technically-minded, it would be useful. Also, it would give users an understanding of how likely this situation is to happen again in the future, should it be fixed this time around.
     
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  20. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

    Messages:
    1,044
    This would be up to the Traktor team and as I said, I really wanted to jump in to reassure everyone that we are still doing the best we can to get this sorted. I really don't want for you guys to think that we just brushed this off and I'd like for us here at support to be as transparent as we can about any news we might get on this front.