Z2 Catalina Support

Discussion in 'KONTROL Z2' started by tricky_trev_Tf, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    Matt, thank you and I am so sorry that you have been sent out to bat by NI but not been given and actual bat...

    Given the severity of the issue and the length of time this has been going on, NI really need to get someone from the Traktor team to speak on this issue and not expect their support staff to take the flak for them.
     
  2. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    I'm happy to discuss in any case. You can see I'm generally pretty present in the forum anyway so that's not the first time I engage on hot topics such as this one. There is always the assumption that I will have all the answers and that's fair but my priority is getting the information we have available and keep the topic alive so that you guys are not in complete darkness.

    I think bottom line we all want this issue to be solved and so while I'm not able to offer some in depth technical detail about why the Z2 is not compatible, everyone will hopefully be happy to read that Apple is working on it and we are hopeful.
     
  3. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    Matt, you are too kind and I think it is very unfair of NI to expect you to take on this role.

    We already know that NI is chasing Apple to work on this. And we knew some time ago that Apple were working on it. What we _don't_ know is how it even came to this in the first place, where the technical issue are or how fragile any fix will be to future updates, and what NI are going to do in the future to mitigate against this happening again (by, for example, switching to driverkit as suggested in this thread).

    Someone from the Traktor team needs to present something like this:

    We first spotted the issue on x
    The issue is related to this
    To fix this, we are doing this
    And in the future, we will avoid this issue by doing this
     
  4. tricky_trev_Tf

    tricky_trev_Tf NI Product Owner

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    Hi Matt,
    Your response is sincerely appreciated. As for not going into the tech details, the issue is absolutely clear:
    The USB's URB_INTERRUPT OUT message getting lost when a USB URB_INTERRUPT IN occurs with close timing -directional flagging/buffer issue perhaps- resulting in a timeout). The out= traffic from the Mac to the Z2 (meter LEDs). in = fader/encoder inputs.

    It would be nice if NI could at least acknowledge it and point us to the bug in the iokit source (and proof it isn't in TP3 or Z2), or provide a statement on why they haven't made their own dext or kext as a workaround in these months? Or as an alternative: a Z2/Traktor update to shut down the meter/LED traffic as an interim!
     
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  5. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    I'll relay this and understand you want a more technical information but I will focus on communicating updates I receive from the team.

    We posted this article yesterday and we will update it as information comes along: https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005933758

    We will add in a few moment that we received the new beta today but unfortunately the issue was still observed on this apple-seeds-macos-catalina-10-15-4-beta-2 version.
     
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  6. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    Matt...thanks again for this update but...

    Man, the blog post is depressing. NI is still insisting this is an OS issue when clearly there is more to it. From what Trev has said, it appears that the underlying problem here is that NI have chosen to 'bake in' fragility in terms of how the Z2 works by sticking with IOkit. Whilst it might be that the current version of IOKit has a bug, let's be honest it probably doesn't. More likely is that the Z2 is just out of date. Other manufactures get around this issue by using their own driver and thus not relying on Apple to make it work...

    EDIT: NI must have known for months that IOKit was being phased out. Relying on something that Apple are moving away from and then bleating when Apple introduce a 'bug' is simply not going to cut it. Honestly...c'mon guys this is totally nuts.
     
  7. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    Please understand that there is a lot of customers (actually pretty much everyone) that simply want an update on this situation and do not need a detailed technical analysis on this issue. I understand you guys want to know more but unfortunately this is not what this article is made for.
     
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  8. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    Matt, that may be the case but the article does explicitly state that NI are waiting for Apple to fix a bug their end when...when Apple don't want people relying on IOKit as it is a security risk, so launched DriverKit to replace it. So even if Apple manage to find a 'fix' now, do NI think they will be happy to do so again the future, considering that really they want NI to move away from IOKit?

    I think that is a fair question to ask given the cost of the Z2, the fact that it is still on sale, and that there are workable solutions available should NI wish to pursue them.
     
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  9. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    I mean at this point we are just speculating right ?
    We are actually waiting for Apple to fix an OS issue and they expressively communicated to the Traktor folks that they are actively working on it. What do you wish to see in this article to reflect that ?

    We'll focus on the task at hand which is getting more updates on this issue and communicate it to as many affected customers as possible.Then we can debate on the rest ;)
     
  10. djdivide

    djdivide NI Product Owner

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    OK Matt, thanks.
     
  11. jvp

    jvp NI Product Owner

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    NI could develope and share a mapping of Z2 to use it in midi mode until Apple fix the bug.

    I try to create a mapping but a lot of functions i don´t know how to do it. The volume and eq is easy, but the other functions isn´t that easy.
     
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  12. tricky_trev_Tf

    tricky_trev_Tf NI Product Owner

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    I thought the same, but unfortunately the Z2 firmware is poorly programmed. It cannot be used as a "dumb" mixer with MIDI capability like any other mixer in its class. Another way to put it: only Internal mixer mode can be used in Traktor, not External mixer mode with the Z2. The CUE/MIX section is disabled when HID is disabled.
    [shakes head in disbelief that someone though this would be a great idea]
     
  13. Cmon

    Cmon New Member

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    Imagine you have bought a new MacBook 16 Inch...and yes it comes with 10.15 pre installed. And no, you can't downgrade it, I have tried it. Should I sell the Z2 oder the MacBook in order to keep DJing? I don't care which fault it is, this is just not right. You can still buy the Z2 brand new and there is no mesage, that it will NOT run on your new MacBook, no matter what you do. Maybe it's time to switch to another DVS :-/
     
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  14. DjJascha

    DjJascha NI Product Owner

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    native-instruments: Why don‘t you show some love and provide a firmware to disable the damn meter????

     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  15. tricky_trev_Tf

    tricky_trev_Tf NI Product Owner

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    Since Traktor is the only source for the offending URB_INTERRUPT out traffic (although the bug may be somewhere else), the minimum NI can do for us is mask(disable) this out traffic in the Traktor.app for now as a workaround.

    After all - all this data being sent to the Z2 is/can be already on the Traktor screen: (mixer channel lets, battery flashing led, etc...). The FX buttons with associated latching LEDs can be controlled via MIDI using Controller Editor - same for the deck load buttons.

    Alternatively, it would be very interesting to see what NI say about changing the URB_INTERRUPT to a URB_CONTROL message (or even a BULK for that matter), and if the bug still persists in the setReport handling in iokit...
     
  16. Leclerc Alistair

    Leclerc Alistair New Member

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    the worst part is that the equipment is still on sale! it's shameful for a brand like NI.

    It is certainly apple's responsibility to correct the bug, but on your side, are you trying to provide solutions? or to make the table work properly in another way, by providing a midi mapping?

    The subject was still created on November 7, and since then there have been 0 advancements (if not an unfortunate information page specifying that the Z2 is not compatible with Catalina).

    Why do I get the impression that it is the users who are trying to provide more solution than the manufacturer?
     
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  17. James Loader

    James Loader New Member

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    Hi Matt,

    Thank you for your engagement on this topic and for informing us that Apple are still working on the issue.

    Can you please confirm if NI are actively looking at workarounds for this issue?

    Regards

    James
     
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  18. DiscoDav

    DiscoDav New Member

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    So correct me if I'm wrong, NI are assuming that at some point over the beta releases for 10.15.4, apple are going to add the fix in so that when the final release of 10.15.4 comes out, it'll be fixed?
     
  19. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    As far as I know, the issue has to be fixed by Apple and so there is no workaround but I will ask again.
     
  20. Matt @ NI

    Matt @ NI Support Team NI Team

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    We have just been told by Apple that they are actively working on this but as you can imagine, they wouldn't mention to us exactly when this would be solved. We can only test the beta or final version we are being sent and so far 10.15.4 is not yet compatible.
     
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