GEIST vs. MASCHINE it on and poppin fellas someone's gonna need a pamper!

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Mr. MuhSheen, Mar 10, 2011.

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  1. Mr. MuhSheen

    Mr. MuhSheen Forum Member

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    I know you're saying "his name is MR. Muhsheen why is he pumpin' up Geist?" Well, first I believe competion will ultimately make MASCHINE that much better. Secondly, I'm not beholden to any MASCHINE or company, they have to earn my money and support by providing "new fresh ideas in the area of beatcraftmanship, response to customer suggestions, development of feature request, and the development of bugfree software. With that being said I think the developers really need to look at some implementations of features in FXspansions GEIST that would make WORKFLOW much more efficient in MASCHINE.

    1. GEIST has a ROUND ROBIN LAYERING features that allows for RANDOM, RESET random ect types of LAYERING. This allows for your drum MASCHINE to have a slightly "unpredictable" and less "static" feel to your grooves.

    2. GEIST allows you to EDIT MULTIPLE SAMPLES and LAYERS at the same time. One thing that bugs me about MASCHINE is that if I want to EDIT the LFO on more than one sample I have to do it one at a time? (duh!) Or If I want to set the same POLYPHONY for a pad I have to do it one at a time!

    3. GEIST has LINE GRAPHS and LINE TEMPLATES that have RANDOMIZATION and can be AUTOMATED with a MIDI LEARNED hardware knob. This is ABSOLUTELY SICK! You see this allows you to lets say change the VELOCITY on HI-HATS RANDOMLY ON THE FLY! It will never sound the same for a whole song IF YOU WANT! MASCHINE needs to allow for some LINE GRAPHS or LINE TEMPLATES that will allow for QUICK PATTERNS.

    4. GEIST also has SWING TEMPLATES that come stock or you can EXTRACT a MIDI GROOVE from a beat (ala LIVE!). I like MASCHINE SWING PER PAD or GROUP but it still doesn't give you CLASSIC MPC SWING or SP12-SP1200 SWING. THey can say you can do it all THEY want, but people who know will tell you MASCHINE'S swing is a little OFF!

    5. But the GRANDADDY of them all is the something that is very DEBATABLE and that is the SOUND ENGINE! I don't know what NI uses in their CODING but, no matter what the sounds that come out of MASCHINE are kind of COLD and STATIC. THis may be good fro the TRANCEHEADS, GLITCHERS, DUBSTEPPERS and ELECTROBEATERZ but if you're into classic HIP HOP or Dn' B, you need your sounds WARMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! I don't know how MOTU BPM does it because their samples and sound engine is warm as fresh baked bread. Now I've tried GEIST and for lack of abetter word the SOUND and SAMPLES that come out of GEIST are CLASSIC! What I mean is that they have somehow emulated the outputs of an 1987 original ROGER LINN MPC! What I'm saying is that without EQ the kick drum sound out of a GEIST PAD or the GEIST SOUND ENGINE (when hit) will make your body MELT to CREAM. If you have heard any GOLDEN ERA HIP HOP SONG you can get this sound out of GEIST without MASTERING! Truth WITHOUT MASTERING!
    Now I'm using GEIST inside my MASCHINE because my name is MR. MUHSHEEN but, putting a GEIST DRUM KIT next to a MASCHINE DRUM KIT is like putting LeBron James up against Charlie Sheen, you can feel the HEATTTTT! Can't prove this SONIC difference but it's real! as Fat Joe said the **** is Real!

    Fellas I love MASCHINE because of the HARDWARE-SOFTWARE integration but this GEIST is filling the GAPS in features that MASCHINE has yet to implement. Ohh by the way GEIST has DIRAC-3 TIIIIIIMMMEEEEEESTTTTREEEETCHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! You tell me who needs the pamper?
  2. flux302

    flux302 NI Product Owner

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    I agree except for 4 & 5. while yes it would be nice to steal the groove of a sample and use that, I don't feel maschines groove is bad in anyway. actually and I'm not shitting I prefer it to my mpc's swing.

    as for the sound being cold... I'm sorry I NEVER get that complaint about my sound. especially since 1.5, Yes I do tweak my sounds to get them sounding properly warm But back when 1.5 came out i did extensive A/B testing with an mpc 3000, mpc 200xl, mpc 1000, asr-10, mpc 4000 and an sp 1200. I found when set to normal (no fx or tweaking) maschine sounded the most "full" yet very straight forward. it really wasn't colored much at all. then when I properly used the emulation modes. the sp1200 mode was VERY VERY close in sound. (especially pitched down just a tad)
    the mpc was close but seemed a bit um. how to describe? the highs were more prominent but not as harsh.
    anyway maybe thats up to your interface? and technique.
    I did mess with geist a tad. but it just couldn't really hold my interest as well. and had a few big disappointments about it, but I won't speak on them cause I'm no geist expert, I'll let joe do that :) lol
  3. Mr. MuhSheen

    Mr. MuhSheen Forum Member

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    77
    One thing I can say about you FLUX is that you do take a SCIENTIFIC approach to your evaluations which extracts any bias that a poster may have and I RESPECT that! I'm going by a subjective set of ears in a room that may not be as sonically set as yours. No real A/B comparisons here by me, but, I know how a sample makes me feel when I hit it! I also know the sound of the GOLDEN ERA of HIP HOP and that is a sound that I really like! Anyways just FOOD FOR THOUGHT because you do agree with 1 thru 3 and I'm not sure what your comment was on the TIMESTRETCH baby!
  4. soosh21

    soosh21 Forum Member

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    282
    Im a geist inside maschine kind of guy..... ha, that sounded strange! Maschine will always be my boy, but geist just gets me!
  5. roc7

    roc7 Forum Member

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    63
    Word I was going to wait until the official 1.6 release to touch on some of this plus some new guy started a pointless thread before learning his maschine that got everybodies attention, but now lets get at it.

    First looking at geist's features and watching the vidz, I took a gander at the forum over there last week and It wasn't popping and crackin like this one prolly cause everybody is lost in the flow of all those features. But NI definitely has the snappier forum hands down.

    Now I must say that I use the sp and mpc emulation on all my drums. This feature seems to know exactly what to do on a particular drum. I just run the drum though all the selections and bam its like there's the sound I was looking for and ghostly images of the sp 1200 or the mpc start floating around in my mind, nobody is touching NI in this regard.

    For me man (cries a little bit) Its like every time I see a cursor in a waveform (even in the sliced samples) like bpm ( I own) and geist, I just can't come to grips... ya know its tough. The drum layering just sucks so bad (maschine) and every time its mentioned in this place (cries a little more) some idiot jumps in and says its fine the way it is, like what the phuck man! mind your own dammn business!

    (Gathering my self)

    And for the life of me why o why did they bother giving us vst plug-ins without multi-core support, its literally keeping me up at night. I can run 5 plugins tops between effects and instruments in stand alone before the cpu maxes out. And in cubase forget it, its twice as bad as kore 2, totally unusable even for tracking out unless you want to use like 2 plugs. And I don't want to hear use plug-ins that are less on the cpu cuz thats totally subjective and free vsts a lot of times ain't cuttin it. I'm no hobbyist I have a dream and vision I want to bring to the world for real no BS.

    NI has been there for me on this tip. I use a least one of the lovely products on every track, every one no doubt. NI please hit this out of the park and give us the most requested features please: Cursor in the waveform, auto-scroll, drum layering that can compete and multi-core support. Also would like to count in on major bar positions without taking it from the top every time. If we have to wait until 2.0 for these features it will be a crime.

    Now geist on the other hand has no piano roll (its been requested) no count-in (its been requested) No plug-in hosting (Don't think its on their radar for now). I think it just got 64 bit support on windows and mac 64 is still being worked out. I gotta see how it handles tracks in song mode I don't think 8 tracks are enough I'd like to see 16, if not 24 though you do have 8 engines x 24 patterns also 72 scenes neatly located on something that looks like abletons drum rack.

    I feel the drum classification scheme where each type of drum has its on color upon slicing (it affects the play back of the loop where it only plays one drum of each type...)have a look to understand it better but to me it gets in the way and many users have asked that geist allows them to slice the loop, have it mapped across the pads and let the user decide what slice gets played.

    The End - my longest post ever.
  6. SuperKonquer

    SuperKonquer Forum Member

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    302
    I like alot of Geists features but soundwise in my opinion it's only ok. I only played with it for for a few nights and it has some awesome features(time-stretch, step sequencer and 1 mega ton of cool graph options) but sound wise didn't really blow me away.


    My assessment is probably unfair though because for drums and samples I mostly use Motu Bpm sequenced by maschine. The Uvi engine in motu just seems so well focused on getting punch and clarity and then grit, that the only thing that could touch its sound is hardware. Bpms rack sequencer is tight but such a pain in the asre though.

    If I had Geists functionality, BPMs Sound, and Maschines usability I would be set for life haha.
  7. dazastah

    dazastah Forum Member

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    47
    I dunno guys... To me.. the limitations make the instruments... I never use groove templates. Its ok from the start for the drum break, but in the end, i keep replaying(hitting in live) until the feel is right by playing it in.. Since every beat(instrumetal) has it's own groove.. It's takes longer to sift through groove templates to match it with the melody samples than to just hit the beat in...

    In concerns of multilayering? You can? via the controller.. Quite quickly... Sure each layer can only have pitch,volume, attack, and decay, adj.. but then the pad overall has the rest of the features...

    I agree that a single learn control knob that can be freely assignable to anything would be cool.. Like a universal macro

    but

    Things can be more creative with limitations...
    To many features means it takes to long to do a simple thing....
  8. roc7

    roc7 Forum Member

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    63
    The problem for me with the layering is not how easy it is to do. Sure its easy from the controller. That is known. Its once you've layered your drums or samples how easy is it to edit each layer?. Trying to edit layered sample maps on maschine totally negates any advantage of how easy it is to add a layer.

    The fact that bpm and geist blows maschine away in this regard shows that those devs understand how important this feature is to the target user. Bpm has unlimited layers and unlimited effects for each layer, pad and part (rack). Watch the geist vid on patterns and layers then take another look at the sample mapping page in maschine after you've added some layers and see if maschine competes in this dept.

    Btw layering in bpm takes 3 secs drag and drop no button pushing needed or wanted. You can replace a sound by dropping on a pad or add it to the current pad in the form of a layer. Maschine needs this option from the software and should have it. Drag and drop from the browser just replaces the entire sound. A simple right click add layer feature on the software menu like on the hardware would have been thoughtful.

    I'm a user that doesn't use those little screens that much, I like full screens and I'm never going back to the mpc view. I wish the screen in bpm was larger. Maschine was made for both types of users. I love the controller for what it does.

    I truly love all these apps though. They're doing what would have required thousands 20 years ago. Spectrasonics has a vid about sampling technology that came out when they released Omni it showed some of the first samplers, one was $15,000! We got it good for sure.
  9. noiserot

    noiserot Forum Member

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    1,866
    Sorry but that is BS.
  10. sowari

    sowari Moderator Moderator

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    Mr. MuhSheen, duplicate threads is against Forum Rules :angry:

    i have deleted not one but two threads with the same title.

    sowari
  11. marcpinol

    marcpinol Forum Member

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    115
    Yeah. One thing I love from Battery is that you can assign some random functions to samples (like velocity, tone, etc), so I would be really happy to see this on Maschine someday, specially when you're working on step sequencer mode. I think that would be a killer for real drums and percs!
  12. just1n

    just1n Forum Member

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    305
    Does geist have a hardware controller? No.
  13. flux302

    flux302 NI Product Owner

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    2,952
    oh btw the reason I didn't speak on Timestretch is 1) because anyone who has read my threads before knows damn well how much I feel maschine needs proper timestretch (aside from groundbreaking new timestretching which I feel is on the way)

    2) because I know that it IS on it's way shortly. and I am indeed waiting.

    geist didn't really work for me though I really can't say I messed with it long enough to give a review of it. it just wasn't for me, if it is working great for you and your work flow then I say cheers! no biggie.

    I feel competition breeds excellence. and I am glad to see geist, bpm, beat thang , arturia spark all after the mantle of best new beat machine.
    right now I still feel maschine is the best for MY workflow. and yes I still feel it has room for MANY improvements. can't wait for em.
  14. saintjoe

    saintjoe NI Product Owner

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    3,811
    There are things I like about Geist, it's layering is nice and I dig some of the fx/modulations going on.

    I use Cytomic plugin inside of Maschine, he's the guy that did all the dsp programming for Geist, Dcam, BFD fx, etc... The Glue is dope

    I like the sound engine, layering, and fx/mixer in BPM, I also dig it's groove/playback, has a lil funk in it...

    I use the UVI workstation in Maschine to access all of my BPM sounds, I used BPM in Maschine as well but like using UVI workstation better, it's quicker to layer and you don't have to setup any pad mapping.

    I think the NI devs know what they are doing, they set the standard as the innovator and originator of the paradigm shift in regards to how software "groove production" is handled.

    They felt it was much more interesting to raise the bar and include VST support in their groove station, something no one else has done. Now they can go back and improve things like layering, etc, in a way that really works within the Maschine dynamic.

    I have no doubt the NI devs are listening and feel pretty much even without the layering which I really want, or timestretch which many folks want,...it's still the best "groove production box" around.

    Geist is cool for what it is, if that's what you're looking for, but I will admit I've been spoiled by Maschine, it's exactly what I was looking for in a production tool, despite features I wish to see added, I have no desire to use anything else.

    The first goal of Maschine is to allow you to get your ideas down quickly, and it's all about the workflow. I really think they will spend some time improving a lot of the stuff we've requested, timestretch, layering, arranging, all of this...but I feel the 1.6 update was a statement to let everyone else know NI isn't trying to just duplicat, but innovate and change the dynamic of things.

    Geist, Guru, Nerve, Pulse, BPM, BTV, none of them will let you open plugins inside of them, none, BPM let's you open UVI/Motu sounds, that's it. MOTU somewhat understood that folks will want to do more than use drums and samples with a tool like that and that many will want to complete their productions there with other sounds and instruments...close, but oh so far.

    I can open each and every one of these other tools in Maschine now if I wanted to...looks like someone pulled a checkmate ;)
  15. soosh21

    soosh21 Forum Member

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    282

    Thats irrelevant really. Does maschine have timestretch? Also irrelevant. Basically they are two different beasts. i use both equally, as maschine has basic things missing that geist excells in and vice versa. I couldnt produce without maschine now, its in all my tracks, but the majority of my drum work is done with geist as i prefer the layering, filters and effects.

    Simple things such as having a predelay per layer are very important to me and geist has that. With 1.6 im close to my prodcution dream. If future updates add a few of the missing features geist has, i will happily only use mashine in live.

    I agree limitations are good for creativity as often you end up fiddling and not really making music! However, some things are just needed to ensure the best work flow.

    In conclusion, thanks you both maschine and giest....its changed the way i make music and taken things to the next level for me. Theres so many people on these forums that are defensive about any criticism aimed at maschine. Everyone works diff and whats perfect for one person is limited for another.

    Complaining is great, as i think NI are listening....just as long as people arent be asses! my 2 cents.
  16. kraster

    kraster Forum Member

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    277
    +1

    NI have really set the bar with 1.6.
    It's only the first iteration of plugin hosting but the mere fact that it does has opened it up to unprecedented flexibility.
    It's a pretty impressive first effort given that we haven't even seen the final official release yet.
    It really is a game changer.
  17. saintjoe

    saintjoe NI Product Owner

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    3,811
    This right here!

    thank you :cool:
  18. roc7

    roc7 Forum Member

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  19. Tier Wun

    Tier Wun New Member

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    14
  20. lastninja64

    lastninja64 Forum Member

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    95
    Spot on soosh
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